Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is a man accused of rape guilty until proven innocent?

159 replies

APBrasRule · 10/06/2010 10:48

I have listened to a lot of debate about rape over the years and I felt it was a great step forward when a woman who had been raped was given anonymity in court.

However listening to Woman's Hour this morning I felt we now want to change the burden of poof from proof of guilt to the man having to prove he is innocent.

OP posts:
ISNT · 28/07/2010 18:51

"I genuinely believe that feminism has changed its focus from equality to special dispensation from the law (and revenge?) over and above equality. "

The examples backing this up are... That there are women only health clubs and a women only writers retreat.

Does this evidence really bring to light a "subtle" shift towards women getting special dispensation in the law, and revenge? I really don't think that it does.

Men go off and do "men only" stuff all the time, but you want to take away the "women only" sessions at the local pool? On the basis that feminists have gone too far this time with their women only writing retreat. Really?

HerBeatitude · 28/07/2010 20:07

"I have always been a passionate believer in equality, and by the way so is my husband. He hates feminists, but I have never met anyone who is more equality focused than he is."

Er, seeing as how feminists want to be considered equal human beings to men, what is it exactly that your husband hates about feminists? The demand for equal pay? The demand not to be raped? The wish that society is organised so that women are not disadvantaged because they are women?

Anyone who "hates" feminists, can't actually be that keen on equality. Or if he is, he obviously knows sweet FA about feminists and feminism.

APBrasRule · 29/07/2010 11:27

Ok I over stated, strongly dislikes is a better term than hates. Yes he is a strong advocate of equality in everything; that ability and merit are the only methods that you should judge someone say for a job, not sex, race, religion.

He works for a large US corporate here in the UK. He has seen over the last 10 years a number of his male colleagues discriminated against because they are men. Rubbish I here you all shout. Well they have a ?positive promotion? system for women in middle management. So during that time most promotions into 1st line and 2nd line management have been women. There have been some very able women promoted, but there have been a quite a few women who simply should not be there. I know a lot of the people at my husbands office both men and women, and there is an increasing dissatisfaction with women mangers who cannot manage. Just because we are women does not mean that if we want to do something we will be good at it.

There have also been a number of men dismissed after being accused of sexist behaviour. I know one of them personally and sexist he is not. However he upset a female technician in some way. She made an accusation that he made a sexist comment. It was her word against his; he was immediately suspended while an enquiry was undertaken. He was advised later off the record that he should leave and if he resigned he would get a good reference. No one asked him what had happened, there were no independent witnesses. He has a wife and 3 DD?s, his wife teaches but her salary was not enough. They had to sell the house all 3 DD were born in and move. We still see them regularly and all I can say is his wife would really like to meet the woman who accused her husband.

When my husband joined the company in the 80?s it was totally merit based, there were women at all levels include the main board in the US. The only place that women were few and far between was in the site engineers. They were on call 24 hours a day its heavy and often very dirty work and they simply could not get many women to do the job.

Now if you a man it?s still a good place to work or so my husband says. However while a woman can say ?all men are bastard? if she or a girlfriend has been dumped, if a man says anything that may be construed as sexist either by the recipient or if someone over hears and accusation is made, then that man will be ?let go?.

None of this happened over night. It?s the result of very small changes that looked reasonable and proper but all in one direction. The company is held up in the US as a feminist success story.

Now you tell me what?s the difference between equality and feminism?

OP posts:
lemonmuffin · 29/07/2010 11:44

Blimey. that sounds horrendous AP.

I can see your dh's point.

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:11

Gosh how interesting.

What sector is this company in?

The companies that I have worked for have all been same old/same old re gender pay gap, sexism, etc etc etc. I have mainly been in financial services though.

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:12

Is your DHs POV based entirely on his experience in one workplace?

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:14

I am also not sure how his experience in the workplace links in with your views that feminists want the burden of proof changed in rape cases?

vesuvia · 29/07/2010 12:20

APBrasRule, when your husband challenges the managament of his employer about violations of equality legislation, what response does he receive?

happysmiley · 29/07/2010 12:53

APBrasRule,

I'm certainly not dismissing your husband's experiences but do have some questions for you.

Does his company's middle management tier have a 50:50 split after the positive discrimination or is it still biased to one sex? In a 50:50 environment, I would expect there to be some poor performing men and women. (Sadly not everyone who gets promoted will be any good.) Is there any evidence that the women managers are poorer performers on average than the men? I think that in general the perception of women's performance is worse than men's even if the evidence is that the actual performance is the same. People seen have higher expectations from women. In politics for example, female ministers are usually judged much more harshly than men.

If your husband still thinks the place is a good one to work for as a man, I'd be surprised if men were being treated worse at work than women. Why does he think that it is still a good place to work if there really is such a strong gender bias in favour of women rather than equality?

Re the man's suspension, that is indeed very sad. I'm surprised that he was advised to resign under the circumstances, given that there wasn't much proof. I've been in the opposite situation were I have made an informal complaint of sexual harassment. Although my manager believed me and was willing to move my harasser to a different team / ensure I no longer had to work with him, I was advised to keep it informal so as not to affect my reputation at work, so it does cut both ways.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page