I consider myself a feminist...and a housewife.

[darcymum]

I don't want a job, I just want to stay home look after my children and cook nice dinners. I dread the day my youngest goes to school as I know I will have to get a job. DH goes to work I do most of the house work... I like it that way. I am not a surrendered wife, my husband doesn't tell me what to do.

And yet I consider myself a feminist, I am a feminist, and am a very strong supporter of women's rights, and men's rights if they want to stay at home and be 'mum' like me.

Am I deluded and oppressed and just don't know it?

The assumption is women in professional careers will be a good example. But most of my friends have mothers, grand mothers and in my case, a great grandmother, university educated and with a career. We know what it looks like for a woman to go out to work and be a high achiever.

Don't have the figures, but domestic violence/abuse isn't solely the monopoly of the woman who stays at home. It happens to professional women also, and in fact was reading somewhere that it's under reported by professional women.

I just think it should not be considered a huge political statement, or anti feminist, if a woman wants to be at home with her children and reject the premise that it's harmful to one's children to have a mother at home.

kneedeep is right that many women are too reliant on men financially. But we can't be too much of a love in on all this women together, lovely choice you all make because if all women chose to be home we would lose all the gains women had made and in effect prove that women prefer to be of service, a woman's place is in the home and we would be back where we started. No way is vbeing a housewife a feminist choice. It feels like 1984 or Brave New World type lies for anyone to suggest that.

I don't agree that we have had a short capitalist phase. Women in the UK worked on the land originally and after that in homes and factories. They have always worked. Women in jungles work. Women in many cultures support families and men whilst men occasionally hunt but women have in many cultures even done most of the work - exploited by men even over that whilst men sit around polishing their spears. There is no natural order of woman at home not working looking after children. Sexist men don't need to opine when the mumsnetters are there doing their job for them saying all these women can take a choice to be housewives.

What proportino of housewives would you lot be happy with? if you love it presumably you want your daughters to do it too. Would you be happy if 50% of women gave upwork or never worked? if they are giong to be hosuewives what is the point in educating them. Should we not give more university places to boys in that case and classes in houw to cook good food an work the washing machine and how to look pretty for your husband for women?

Xenia, fundamental error in your argument: the refusal to accept that rearing and caring for children IS work.

If is so boring and hard work most women now and in the past get others to do it as soon as they can. It's dradful dull work. Most of us like it a bit, adore to cuddle the childern and like some hours to bond with them but not day in and day out and not to pretend it's any kind of an interesting job for a woman.

Now you're contradicting yourself. One minute you are saying "There is no natural order of woman at home not working looking after children" and the next you are saying that looking after children is "boring and hard work".

I was saying women have always worked. Roman women left their babies with slaves. Medieval women sent them out to wet nurses. Indian women in Africa use African servants. Arabs i Dubai use filipinos. Middleclass non working women with rich husbands in the UK have au pairs and nannies. Women don't want to do these dull things so they find others to do them and I'm not surprised.

Taking on the domestic sphere because you are female and choose to is not advancing any feminist cause. Saying I will do dull domestic work because it is a choice and awful capitalism says practising surgery or doing difficult interesting journalist work is better but that is wrong and housework is lovely just sounds like cloud cuckoo land to me. Real feminists enjoy good careers and have fun out earning men. They don't stay home ironing his socks.

"I was saying women have always worked. Roman women left their babies with slaves. Medieval women sent them out to wet nurses. Indian women in Africa use African servants. Arabs i Dubai use filipinos. Middleclass non working women with rich husbands in the UK have au pairs and nannies. Women don't want to do these dull things so they find others to do them and I'm not surprised."

So tell me, are the slaves, wet nurses, African servants, Filipinos, au pairs and nannies listed above men or women? Are they doing work? Is their choice to do this work a 'feminist choice'? Or don't these women count in your world?

Oh well. Guess I'm not a feminist.

I think it's fine to be at home with the children, but seems there's a misconception that some women who stay at home are in the 1950s mold.

But it does have implications for the wider world if you stay home. It's not a feminist choice. I would never stop anyone syaing they are a feminist internally and housewives may have more time to march, point out sexism, fly to Saudi to demonstrate about legislation against women and all that stuff but it's not a very femininst list choice to serve a man and children. It lets the side down.

Society has always had structures. Most women as sono as they get any money or power pay others whether female or male slaves or servants to do do jobs they don't want to do. Why shoudln't they? It's perfectly natural. You don't have to be a socialist thinking doctors shoudl mop floors with hospital cleaners to be a feminist. You can be a capitalist feminist. It's fun.

It might be 'fun' for the lucky few. Not for the less fortunate many.

You still haven't explained the contradictions in your statements Xenia.

Xenia, is it just because men don't value the "boring" work women do at home that you don't?

also, if you are a socialist, you don't think doctors should mop floor alongside cleaners (or that cleaners should perform operations!), but you think that the value of both jobs is equal.

Why would there be no female doctors or other professionals because women choose to stay at home for a few years? Why can't they train for their careers after their children are old enough not to need full time care?

Oh, yes, that's right, it's because older people are apparently incapable of learning new things

TurnedintoanITprofessionalattheageof45RustyBearxx

(with apologies to DawnTigga for nicking her sign-off style)

"But it does have implications for the wider world if you stay home. It's not a feminist choice."

OK, so if I go out to work looking after your children, that's a feminist choice, yeah?

Then I spend my wages paying for someone else to look after my children while I'm out working looking after yours.

xenia, I do understand what you mean by staying at home is not a feminist choice. But if feminism is about being reactionary ? responding to men and a man's world ? rather than than being FEMALE, living a life that feels good to me, as a woman who bore a child, then I'd rather not consider myself a feminist, because being a feminist would be being anti-female, and much more about responding to men's shit than responding to what it feels like to me female.

sorry, i misused the word reactionary. I meant if it's about responding to this man's world.

good point molesworth!

Both parents have children. It is not anti male to work nor anti female.

I'm certainly not a socialist, no.

The reality is women who rely on male earnings later earn less often for the next 40 years, not always but plenty do.

"Xenia, is it just because men don't value the "boring" work women do at home that you don't?"

Absolutely not. I've spent 25 years bringing up 5 childre. I will probably have cleaned more loos than any housewife on this thread, probably had more hour on hour of child care too if you average 5 chilren over 25 years compared to full time mother for 3 or 4. So I do know what the job entails and I don't need a man to tell me it's quite boring to change nappies 10 times a day. LIke all parents, male and female, I adore being with the children within reason, Love to hold a baby close, like breastfeeding but that doesn't mean I have to regard the domestic tasks as interesting.

I want all mumsnetters to call themselves feminists and for the word to be reclaimed from the dirty word it has become but what it in essence stands for of equality under the law and fairness at home and most housewife sets up are not really like that.

(If I said being at home wasn't hard then I didn't mean to imply that but I wouldn't call it real work either - and for some who aren't very good at their housecleaning etc they neglect the task - some are good at it and do it well and some aren't).

So Xenia, you're not a socialist. So it's OK for people with more money to exploit people with less money (due to where in the world they happen to be borne, or less resources in their own families, or less intelligence) in order to get them to do a job that they don't want to do themselves (look after their kids) for a lot less money than they can earn themselves.

But it's not OK for men to exploit women (in exactly the way described above)???

With no intention to make a personal attack, it does seem to me that your feminism is about what suits you, not what suits all women.

But Xenia,just because you find full time childcare boring doesn't mean everyone will.And you also assume that work is always interesting and fun(or at least this is how your posts come over)
I have a job which I enjoy,mostly, but I have had some excruciatingly boring days at work.Thinking back I'm not sure I was ever bored when I was at home with the children when they were little,because childcare,unlike my particular job,was always changing.
(Tired and frustrated,yes - but not bored) Someone has to look after children,why should it be so awful if one of their parents wants to do it?
Most women are not making a career choice between brain surgery and full time house and childcare,and it is simplistic to discuss this as if they are.
"The reality is women who rely on male earnings later earn less often for the next 40 years, not always but plenty do". I have chosen to trade off lifetime earnings against spending part of my life at home with my children - why is that not a valid choice?

I am not suggesting being a sahm is a feminist choice, but its not anti feminist either. If I can only be a feminist if I work does that mean that if I have a job looking after somebody else's children I qualify? Does it depend on the type of work I choose? Anything that involves children seem to be letting the side down or would teaching them be ok?

With regard to my hopes for my DDs or DS for that matter, I don't have particular hopes for them career wise and I am including staying at home to raise children as a 'career', I just hope that they are happy in what they do.

You make a point that if women want to stay at home to look after children why bother educating them. It is widely agreed that the single biggest factor in determining outcomes for children is the mothers education level, something I learnt at university, here is a link www.cepr.org/pubs/new-dps/dplist.asp?dpno=6505.asp Educating people who then raise their own children (as opposed to other peoples) may not bring the immediate capitalist rewards educating workers does though. I believe education is about more than just enabling you to make money.

The reality is women who rely on male earnings later earn less often for the next 40 years, not always but plenty do". I have chosen to trade off lifetime earnings against spending part of my life at home with my children - why is that not a valid choice? Couldn't agree more Pogleswood. I am not a particularly money hungry person I don't want loads of flash stuff neither do I have any great ambitions. I don't want all women to make my choice for the simple reason that it would not suit all women. I don't want to have to work all my life just to prove some sort of point.

I also realise that I am very lucky to be able to make this choice, and I am sure many women (and men) do jobs they dislike because they have to make ends meet. DH earns the money but it is our money and it goes into our bank account. I have done work and I have done home, I prefer home, what's wrong with that?

It helps keeps women down and for men to see that women stay home and serve them whilst men work. It's never going to be a feminist choice.

"So Xenia, you're not a socialist. So it's OK for people with more money to exploit people with less money (due to where in the world they happen to be borne, or less resources in their own families, or less intelligence) in order to get them to do a job that they don't want to do themselves (look after their kids) for a lot less money than they can earn themselves.

But it's not OK for men to exploit women (in exactly the way described above)???"

Yes, because feminism is about achieving fair opportunities between men and women and within society as a whole. Also I don't regard it as exploitation for someone to pay someone else to do something for them but I do think it damages women if it is mostly women who do chores and stay home.

Yes, educating women is a great thing to do but what level do they really need to be educated up to? Surely if their life will be wielding the hoover and helping with homework they don't need much more than GCSEs themselves. Why not get them out of school at that age making sure they've majored onc ookery and sewing at school but have their basic education too than wasting time and resources when they will just spend their lives cleaning up after men?

Anyway things are getting better. This is a mancession. Men are losing jobs. Women are gaining them. Men are having to learn to take charge more of all things domestic. Couples aren't generally picking the housewife model. It's all going great. However we must never sit on our laurels.

I think Xenia's vision of home life is coloured by the fact that she was married and had children so very young. To be quite honest, I don't think I would have had many skills for occupying myself and bringing up my children, let alone negotiating my relationship in peace and harmony and constant progress, at a mere 22! Experience of life brings those skills.

"Why not get them out of school at that age making sure they've majored on cookery and sewing at school but have their basic education too than wasting time and resources when they will just spend their lives cleaning up after men?"

Personally I think education is valuable for it's own sake, - but if this a discussion about what women now are choosing to do,and what they want for their daughters,then really not many of us are choosing no paid work at all,ever,are we?

I think I may be having a different discussion from the one you are having,Xenia.
I cannot imagine wanting to be a full time housewife for a lifetime - I'm not advocating that,but I do think time at home is a valid choice for some people,for at least part of their lives.Do you feel any model other than every adult in full time paid work is not on,or is it the full time housewife bit you object to,or somewhere in between?