I consider myself a feminist...and a housewife.

[darcymum]

I don't want a job, I just want to stay home look after my children and cook nice dinners. I dread the day my youngest goes to school as I know I will have to get a job. DH goes to work I do most of the house work... I like it that way. I am not a surrendered wife, my husband doesn't tell me what to do.

And yet I consider myself a feminist, I am a feminist, and am a very strong supporter of women's rights, and men's rights if they want to stay at home and be 'mum' like me.

Am I deluded and oppressed and just don't know it?

"Shouldn't feminists be working on re-structuring society in a way that values women's contribution to it, rather than forcing women to re-structure themselves in order to fit into a patriarchal society?"

Well said, Sakura. It's our society, too.

"...but you're choosing work society values at zero..."

No, Xenia, it's work men value at zero, and you apparently. Your attitudes and views merely uphold, support and collaborate with the Patriarchy. Perpetuating the notion that domestic and child rearing rolls, the very backbone of every society, are of no account or value and ?dull? therefore, we should all strive for 'money and power' (through real work) so that some other woman (undoubtedly), lower in the social hierarchy, can do these lowly and demeaning tasks for us. Presumably your notion of feminism doesn?t apply to them. That?s why men had wives which got us into this mess in the first place. You?re doing nothing to change any of this, or alter attitudes, you?re joining in.
And it may surprise you that some women have children, not because it?s ?slightly more pleasant than a minimum wage job? but because they want to rear them themselves, without recourse to ?slaves?, ?servants? or ?the lowest of the low? to use your words; the very idea. I question how much you valued the rearing of your own children if you were willing to relegate the task to such people.

And it is your own Patriarchal attitudes which are ?anti-feminist? and ?ruinously damaging? to the millions of women worldwide who do this work, whether through choice or not, low- or un-paid and certainly unthanked, subsidising society, men and people like you so you can maintain your privileged position and lifestyle. You may be a woman but you?re no feminist and certainly no sister.

GP thank you for saying in such an articulate way the thoughts and half formed ideas that have been running round my head!

Fantastic post gardenpath.

Xenia it is a shame that you have so much contempt for women who make different choices to yours, because lots of what you say is quite sensible if terribly idealistic.

Forcing women into the capitalist rat race as the only way to achieve equality is little better than forcing them to stay at home (and equally patriarchal I fear).

I believe Xenia breastfed for a long time. It is perfectly possible to do so and work full time.

Just a pedant note - the WHO don't recommend bf up to 2 years but to 2 years and beyond.

Rainbow, I remember her mentioning she'd breastfed, but trying to figure out how.

You are confusing patriarchy and capitalism. Women can be assertive, successful and believe we are a culture and species with hierarchies, with the survival of the fittest and still be feminist. Indeed it's arguably anti feminist to say there is some wonderful utopia where women stay home and clean bottoms and mop floors and serve men and that this is a wonderful choice which benefits women. Instead those women have been influenced by men and propaganda to think dusting teh house is huge fun and changing the baby 15 times a day. How can they possibly think that? I just don't udnerstand it. They are the ones who have in a sense been trapped by men or mothers who have persuaded them service at home is a gorgeous female and femininst choice. That's a ludicrous positoin that only desperate housewives would try to suggest is a choice and feminist.

Of course if you were never up to much at work I can see that cleaning the toilets at heathrow at 5am might be less fun than cleaning your own at home and doing the family washing. So people of either sex make their own choices but housewife as feminist just does't cut the mustard. Women choosing to stay home take a moral choice which damages all women and their daughters in this crucial stage when women are trying to make gains in various careers at higher levels.

Work is fun and exciting. it's not a capitalist rat race. We aren't all socialist and plenty of women have a great time in their careers. It's much more fun tha cooking the nth meal for ironing a shirt for most of us and let's remember most women including those with under 5s do choose to work in the UK.

(I was asked about breastfeeding - life is full of compromise for all of us whether male or female and yes I preferred breastfeeding to expressing but I could take a 40 or 50 year view and see that to have the fun in my career and benefit my children thereby from then (I was 22 when I breastfed my oldest) to now age 48 to say age 75 when I retire or whatever it was worth some months of expressing at the times I wasn't home. I remember buying a book in 1984 called Working and breastfeeding or something like that. I had an electric breastpump which I kept in my bag at work and freezer ice pack etc. and the babies had that when I was out at work but because of the hard work etc in my 20s when I came to have more children i was working for myself so the nanny brought the twins to me when I was working unless I was out at a meeting.

I enjoyed breastfeeding plenty of full time working women do. The more mnoey and power you have in all cultures in all times in history the better you do whatever your gender. This is life, naked in tooth and claw. This is how we are and how we are made, not some namby pamby love each other love fest.

I don't think that more money and power equates to being a better human or happier, Xenia... Enough money to live comfortably, and enough education and skills to have power over your own destiny in the time and place in which you live are what most reasonable people are pretty content with.

But it helps achieve fairness at home. If your income is pin money Mr Big Penis will call all the shots. Tis always the way. If he earns 10% of what you do it's much harder for him to force you to do all the boring domestic stuff and clean the toilets.

doesn't sound like equality either way to me...

Well thats what he said, he lived in Japan a few years with her and there son and came back about 4 years ago, I have no idea how old his son is tho.

Maybe thats how it was 10 years ago, or maybe she was taking him for a fool and he didn't realise.

I don't think that staying at home with one's children should be a huge political statement, nor do I think that it's letting the side down if one does.

I have a friend who went back to work after 3 months and was happy enough, but now that her youngest is 2 years old, wants to spend time with her, so has quit her job. I have another friend who went back to work after 6 months and is happy being full time.

In any case, don't agree that mutual respect is based on money. Of course money can be power, but depends on a such a wide range of factors as to whether it's power in a relationship.

If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female.

just because it doesn't earn money, doens't mean its valueless. it was men after all that made the capitalist system. women would never been stupid enough to make a system that would make them reliant on others if they fulfill their biological function. it's the devluing of femininity that makes people think that looking after your kids is not as valuable as earning dosh.

and if you and your partner have an equal relationship, they are your kids and it's all your money - you are equals, no matter who earns the cash.

what a load of bollox it is to say women who stay at home are not feminists.

"If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female" - Here Here!!

"If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female" - Here Here!! Hear Hear!!

I don't agree one little bit. Achieving fairness at home is down to love, respect and negotiation skills - human values and education. You must have only known Neanderthals, Xenia, if you don't think that...

Xenia - you just don't get it, do you....

But that's the nice theory. On loads of mumsnets threads every day you hear from women powerless at home with no income. Someone even said the other day I don't work, I have no income, I couldn't leave him because I can't afford to and therefore I'll tolerate the 5 hours a night computer gaming or whatever it was.

So those who think being a housewife is a good feminist choice what if all women made that choice ,..okay.. would you be happy with that - you'd never be seen by a female doctor, never have a female pilot drive you, you'd have male shop assistants, board of directors 100% male and all the women would be making a feminist choice not to work outside the house and do the perfectly good valued work of cleaning the house and minding children? Taht just prove surely that it is a political and anti feminist choice to become a housewife. It does other women very little good.

And most parents whatever their gender care for and bring up their children including the majority of parents who work by the way. Never let it be said that working parents don't bring up chidlren.

As I said, you just don't get it.

errr good for you... whats the problem again?

Xenia, your points are completely valid. This is the problem with a capitalist system ? only money, the the power to earn it is valuable.

However, capitalism aside, a woman is a woman. What her body does is important, whether or not this is recognised withing capitalism or not. Capitalism is just a stupid system that has been around for a small amount of time in our history. Women, for as long as our race lives (questionable how much longer that will be) will always bear children. This is valuable, regardless of the stupid system that we live in that doesn't allow women to do this without making them reliant on someone else.

Women are remarkable, and make important and valuable contributions to society in the ways you have outlined ? yes, I'd want a female doctor etc. But these are not the only women to value. Women who choose to make homes and bring up children are just as important to our race as those who spend the hours making a different type of contribution. It's the fact that their work is seen as less valuable than the work of those women who make money that is anti female. It's really the same as valuing anyone who makes more money more than someone who makes less or makes none ? only this is about the value of the female biological function.

And of course women who work also raise their families! No one in their right minds would be saying that! It doesn't mean that women who work love their kids less, or do a worse job at child rearing. It would be brainless to be that simplistic ? just as brainless as saying women who stay at home are anti-feminist.

Regarding bonsoirs point, there are a lot of neanderthals out there, unfortunately. To not be reliant on a neanderthal, a woman has to earn money. It's shit but true. doesn't mean women who stay at home don't have value. I'm a very lucky woman (I do work a bit, but at home, and my DS is my job number 1 that I bend my money earning work around) whose DH values for the work that I do, and thinks the money he earns from the work that he does belongs to both of us, just as the results of the work that I do belong to both of us. But I'm not kidding myself that this is everyones experience ? I know I'm incredibly lucky in the partner I found, and many women don't have this experience. What Xenia says about women having to put up with neanderthal behaviour from men because they are financially reliant on them is A REALITY. But as women together, let's not get caught up in the unfairness of capitalism so much that we jointly undervalue our bodies and the work we do in the home. That's a bit divide and rule, isn't it?