Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

shut the fuck up

nice

I think it is fair to say that teh vast majority of rapes are committed by men, isn't it?

Or is that in question?

Lol, that's your true colours marked Dittany.

Now who's the nasty oppressor?

Because I was trying to find a great comment someone else had made and I remember it was in roughly the same place but it was odd that I could remember that bit and was looking for it at the same time as clarrissimo and tortoises discussions.

Clarissimo I am feeling the same way. I am only trying to learn and question from the woman on the streets perspective and perhaps help answer the original question but I just feel emotionally beaten up and defensive instead.

Rape does include penetration with foreign objects, etc., as ISNT says. In Australia it also includes nonconsensual oral sex (both cunnilingus and fellatio).

Clarissimo, you're not offending me at all, by the way, I'm really enjoying engaging with you.

Bronze, I think with 'odd coincidence' you are trying to get a dig in, but can I refer you to my above post re: dittany not being the Grand High Poobah of feminism?

Bronze, I think the reason us feminists get passionate, and may make you feel browbeaten, is because we're very very sick of people saying things like 'feminists believe that all men are rapists' and 'want women to be superior to men' and 'hate SAHMs' and it's used as a cudgel against us over and over.

We are vilified in various parts of society. We are laughed at as hairylegged lesbians, we are dismissed as Feminazis, we are blamed for social breakdown and the spiralling divorce rate.

It's infuriating to have the same myths thrown at us by women when what we're trying to do is improve women's lives. It isn't actually you, per se, but these threads tend to blend into one - everything Dittany or I or Xenia or whoever says is taken as standing for all feminists ever, and likewise we're responding to general attacks.

Ok heres your answer to "Why some women don't identify with feminism?"

Its because they come on threads like these and leave thinking well now I feel like shit I'm not even going to look into that

Coming in late to this thread, (I just woke up. Yay!) I'm going to say this, and I hope it makes sense.

Some (many) women don't identify with feminism because we live in a patriarchal society, the power trickles down, and women get rewards for being good patriarchally-sanctioned women. Why kick against that and struggle, be misrepresented and mocked? Life's hard enough! Right? Except that the rewards the patriarchy hands out for being a 'good woman' aren't the rewards I want.

We live in a patriarchy. That's how our society is organized. This means that the majority of political, social, and economic power is still in the hands of men. Patriarchy is a political system which ensures the elevation of men, and thereby the subjugation of women. It comes from the long standing alliance of sexism + power. Not all men are sexist, not all men are oppressors, but while we live in a patriarchy all men BENEFIT from background sexism, and all men BENEFIT from low-level oppression of women (Why does my DH get so much praise for changing his niece's nappy, and me none? DH's not a sexist oppressor, but he does benefit from the expectation that men-don't-do-nappies, etc. He happens to be pro-feminist and find that attitude appalling, but he still gets the applause for being a decent human being because he's a man in the patriarchy. Not fair for him, either. It's a rubbish system, and we should scrap it )

I imagine lots of women don't identify with feminism because they either like the rewards they get from the patriarchal system enough to not notice the stinking price women have to pay and the crappy roles they have to play in order to receive those rewards - OR because they look at the way feminists are misrepresented, denigrated, mocked, abused, and hectored by our patriarchal society and think: Sod that! Life's hard enough!

In some ways I can't say I blame them. Those are two sound reasons not to buck the system, really, and the patriarchy has done a fine old number on women in the twentieth century, actually managing to make oppression seem more attractive than the fight for liberation. The patriarchy is good at that sort of thing, it has the power and it uses it.

But let's not get stuck on "I don't identify as a feminist because someone who did made me feel bad once, therefore all feminists are bad." I wouldn't say that about any other political movement, after all. Not all marxists are the same, not all environmentalists are the same, not all catholics or tories are the same, even! I'm confused as to why one or two feminists are taken as representation of a whole movement, when that NEVER, EVER happens to anyone else. Doesn't that make anyone else suspicious?

So when I say "We live in a patriarchy" I'm not saying "Your DH is a rapist/oppressor/." I'm saying "thousands-of-years of sexism plus power has given men the upper hand over women in society, but it makes women AND men pay an unfair, unsustainable price for that deal. Let's overturn this system and find equal power, equal agency, and equal rights for all. Patriarchy isn't about YOUR or MY DH/Brother/Son, it's about a system he lives in, which most of us are blind to. And the system SUCKS.

Ooh this got looong. Medals and Jaffacakes to anyone who got this far!

Right, sorry Dittany, I should've googled that instead of going by memory.

How odd.

Dittany, I'm thick skinned enough to take any of your insults. In fact, I'm pleased to be of service if that is what truly makes you happy.

That or you could consult my other thread for the sort of stuff which feminism should be concerned with. Dry academic debate simply alienated those of a more pragmatic, practical bent.

Blackcurrants, is it okay that I love you? In a nonoppressive way?

aaah since posting my monster-thesis-comment I can see that the people I was trying to respond to have probably gone.

Oops. Well, I suspect most people who read it knew it anyway. But, erm. . . let's still all get some jaffacakes, eh?

And I salute you, Tortoise and Dittany, for flying the flag under some really scurrilous and frustating attacks.
I'd have been on earlier with my can't-be-conscise-to-save-my-life-y-ness, but I'm 5 hours behind you crazy kids, and so it's only 9am. Woooah! Feminism at 9am! I'd better wake up my oppressor/rapist and offer him breakfast in bed

blackcurrants you are fab

Amber that goes back to my first point on this thread which is that many women are very happy to enjoy the results of feminism without being bothered to actually support or fight for those rights themselves.

Excellent post,Blackcurrants!

blackcurrant thansk for that post
it also acknowledged something that bugs me "Why does my DH get so much praise for changing his niece's nappy, and me none? DH's not a sexist oppressor, but he does benefit from the expectation that men-don't-do-nappies, etc. He happens to be pro-feminist and find that attitude appalling, but he still gets the applause for being a decent human being because he's a man in the patriarchy. Not fair for him, either. It's a rubbish system, and we should scrap it grin
"

Well it's 11pm here so I'm off to bed.

I agree with Blackcurrants. I am also perfectly happy to say to anyone in RL or or MN that we live in a patriarchal society that oppresses women, and I think that is wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that in this MN section, I seem to be in disagreement with most of the people posting. As a consequence it seems untruthful to call myself a feminist.