Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

Justmy, I've never come across anything like that - have you really had that experience? How many times? Not doubting you, just puzzled.

I am a feminist for the simple reason that I think men and women are equal. I have never criticised anyone for being an SAHM or whatever on feminist grounds - the whole point of feminism is the right to choose what we do.

LG, I think it's the language though. I know that the men in my life have had extra rights or not had to fight for things as hard as I have, but I don't see them as my "oppressors". I think I find the language quite alienating, I can see why other people would.

I've also noticed that if one woman who calls herself feminist says something, anything, that other find objectionable, it's immediately considered to be indicative of all feminists.

Someone on this thread has already said 'apparently feminism is nothing to do with choices' meaning Dittany's thread about 'choice feminism' as if Dittany is the Grand High Poobah of Feminism (and also misinterpreting the thread, but whatever).

On Sakura's thread in this topic championing the role of SAHMs in feminism, and claiming that being a SAHM is an overtly feminist choice, do we get anyone from this thread saying 'oh, hey, a self-identified feminist is championing SAHMs (and getting a lot of backup). Guess I must be wrong about all feminists hating us, whoops". No. What happens is that Xenia comes along, says something that isn't even really about feminism but more about capitalism/economic libertarianism, and people immediately go 'oh, well, if that's feminism I want no part of it'.

Why is that? Why do people only read the posts they disagree with and call that justification for anti-feminism, where every single thread has huge debate on it and in any given thread about half the self-identified feminists probably agree with you?

Custado made the point that the suffragettes were primarily middle class. I don't see where she claimed that they delibreately set out to exclude working women.

On the "right to work" idea,I realise women in general have always worked - but you don't have to go back too far to find a situation where the expectation was that middle class women would not work,and if you did not marry the choice was caring for parents at home/good works/governessing.

Or the the situation where working women who married were expected to stop working.

Re: this "but all the men I know are OK so it's wrong to generalise" thing - even if all the men you personally know are wonderful, how about looking at all the women you know? How many of them have been raped, sexually abused, assaulted or harrassed? And who is doing this raping, abusing, assaulting and harrassing? Other women?

I bet merely pointing this out will get me called a man-hater, won't it?

Class needs to be acknowledged in this debate, it really does.

"Right to work" is being used as a catch all slogan for womens employment rights when it really only refers to the issues that middle class women faced - who are not in the majority. The use of this term belies the truly class-specific nature of much of what is being debated here.

oh, sorry, missed your first post!

My point is that I am answering the OP, who asked why some women don't identify with feminism. And I was explaining my experiences with people who call themselves feminists and their reactions to me and how I don't want to be like that.

As to the things mentioned. I think you'll find many posts from me on the sexualisation of women. I rant long and loud about music videos being porn with a drum machine! I complain about the sex society and make flippant prophesies about future heinz beans adverts

And of course we should all fight against people who abuse other people - that is criminal behaviour!

and dittany - I'm not in the habit of telling lies! the very first attack upon me happened when I was just a teenager. I was a member of the SWP. I made the mistake of telling my friends (in the pub after a meeting) when we were talking about the future, that I saw myself married, with kids etc blah blah blah. I was then lectured at length. And that was not the only time.

OTOH, when I ran the business I was wrong then too.

And now I am a SAHM and the Question comes and again I am critisised.

And now here I am, feeling like I need to write a novel to explain and justify myself when all I did was write a post specifically about my personal experiences with people who call themselves feminists and judge my choices.

arrggghhh poor poor me.

Well its true that soe men abuse and rape

but then some women abuse and assault as well and we don't want a world where all women are seen as abusers do we?

I know my Dh has never raped anyone (I got engaged to a virgin, I feel pretty sure therefore in that claim) and I don't see why he and people like him should be tarred with a gender wide negative brush

I don't see why my boys should start from a point of rpesumed guilt either

I am a firm beleiver in looking at indiduals fr culpability and blaming the offence, not the offeneders gender

And no loles I dotn think you are a manhater: just that you see it differnetly to me

I'm not saying that the critics are reasonable, I'm saying that we need to understand the critisms to fight them, like any political movement, doens't work if you can't get people on your side.

Yes they are LG - however claiming that one brand of feminism will suit all is unhelpful.

That is what is often happening on this board.

Right, TwoPence, I've seen and agreed with those posts. But do you not think they're feminist issues, then? And I note that you're facing criticism for going back to work now. I mean, what other lobby group (for lack of a better term) is going to fight for them?

I understand that you're talking about your personal experience, but do you think it's possible that you've only noticed the bad experiences? I mean, hi, I'm a feminist and I'm here to tell you that your choices are fine by me. Does that change things? Are you a feminist now?

But clarissimo, you're ignoring the fact that almost all perpetrators of rape, sexual abuse, assault and harrassment happen to be men.

I have a wonderful DP, brother and son. They're not rapists. But that doesn't blind me to the fact that rape is gendered. Frankly I think it's ridiculous to deny the fact.

Clarissimo, if we don't look at wider issues of the power structures in society and the groups they favour, how are we to ever effect any sort of societal change?

I mean, if you say 'crime comes from poverty' you can target poverty and the institutional reasons why poverty exists, to reduce crime, right?

Well, your husband might be lovely, but rape is a gendered crime. The way to tackle it is to look at wider societal reasons why men feel entitled to the use of female bodies. If you say 'well this rape happened to be by a man and this rape happened to be by a man and this rape happened to be by a man' how on earth can you ever fight rape?

At the root of it, yes it is LG. However, life is complicated and the nitty-gritty of how to achieve that is going to vary massively depending on cultural background, finacial position etc.