Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

I've read this several times now, this idea that feminists say that SAHMs are letting the side down.

It's mystifying to me, because I've never heard it. I've heard women warn that automatically being a SAHM puts one in a vulnerable position. I've said myself that it might well be your choice, but it's a choice made within the context of a society geared to encourage and support that choice, and you need to own that. But hate? Hate? Pagwatch said something about being called the Antichrist. I mean, what?

And more relevantly, why is that the only thing 'feminism' is about, to you? Do you not associate feminism with fighting for the vote? For equal pay? For the right to prosecute rapists? For the right to enter learning institutions, and have access to contraception, and be legally allowed to own property? How about the fight to be equally represented in Parliament and on the bench, how about the ability to choose other roles instead of the (perfectly fine!) SAHM role which without feminism was basically the only role allowed to the middle and upper classes?

I mean, fucking hell, it's not as if anything I just named is obscure or badly publicised.

custy, re: "dittany's point re: allthe things that have helped women, the laws, the intitutional changes =, etc. makes it sound like there was a group of feminists who fought and won for those rights."

It makes it sound like there was a group of women who fought for those changes because there was a group of women who fought for those changes.

Compare to the civil rights movement in the US.

I don't believe having huge amounts of experience does make people better at their jobs. The whole idea that people should get paid more just because they have been in a job longer is sexist and ageist. People should be paid based on the role they are performing and their ability to perform that role.

tulips but obama's point was about equal pay for equal work.

In my old industry teh pay differential was 40%. Women were paid much less before they had their children.

That's not OK, surely?

dittany, I posted it on the Feminist board because I wanted to have a reasonable debate. If I just wanted to get a group of people together to slag off feminists I'd have gone straight to AIBU.

Re the myth of man-hating, I don't subscribe to it, but it's out there. We have to admit that it exists before we can start to fight it. The discussion that has started on the other thread re treating men as a generic group is very valid. I think it turns women off because the men they know in real life don't oppress them, they support them in the choices they make.

A couple of points:

I have just watched the Scottish Leaders debate on SKY - another 4 men. The Prime Ministerial debate = 3 men, the Chancellors debate = 3 men. Does it matter? Well the issues discussed were not the issues that are raised time and again here on Mumsnet.

I have always believed that equality for women = equality for men and that there were many benefits for men e.g. relief from the burden of being sole bread winner, ability to define their own masculinity without having to conform to 'macho' stereotypes.

As a life long feminist, I had imagined that by the 21st century, equality would have become an established fact, 'feminism' would have become redundant and 'people' (not men and women) would join together in pursuing an 'equality for all' agenda.

Feminists have always been at their best when tackling injustice head on, being actively involved in direct action and specific campaigns. I am sad when I see feminism sidelined into a sterile academic debate.

One final thought - the Woman's Right to Choose slogan started in relation to Abortion, where it was an attainable, legal objective. The extention of the 'right to choose' mantra to e.g. the sex industry, SAHMs, Number of children, etc. makes a mockery of its original intention as these are complex issues where financial constraints, employment opportunites, etc. mean that many (most?) women do not have anything approaching a free choice.

no, the history of the feminist movement I know, I understand.

But we are not talking about the history of feminism, what people did 100 or so years ago. We are talking - I thought - about the here and now.

And yes, what was done many years ago to give us rights was wonderful, and I am forever grateful.

But in the here and now, the attitude seems - ime - to be you MUST do x, y, z, or you are letting the side down. You MUST think x, y,z, or you are a problem. You must be x, y, z don't you know how women suffered to give you these rights.

Yes, I know. I know they suffered to give me choices. And my choice is to be a wife and mother. And that is what, I personally, have come under fire for - from every single woman I have encountered in rl who called themselves a Feminist (capital F) and I had the misfortune to find myself in debate with.

Normally in the pub.

When I said "right to work" I meant "right to work in a decent job/career or professional job/for the same rate of pay as a man with equivalent skills etc. If that is what you choose."

I mean does it really need to be spelt out? I mean I'd hardly be saying that women should have the right to do the work they did before a few decades ago ie hard physical, low paid or no paid, zero kudos roles, and they shouldn't be allowed to do other sorts of work, really.

When women say that feminism won the right for women to work they mean decent paid professional employment on a par with men. If that is what women want to do they should be allowed to do it - a few decades ago they weren't.

"i believe in much more than gender equality, i believe in equality for all" Surely gender equality is equality for all? Unless there is a third gender?

With regard to a group of people fighting for rights, there bloody was or do you think that changes in the laws regarding rape within marriage; property law; alleged equal pay etc all "just happened".

Also, for the millioneth time on here, why does anyone think that being a SAHM means you can't be a feminist? For heaven's sake, it's a choice for those of you lucky enough not to need the money. You at least have the choice now.

Ok, so your argument is that today's feminist is only concerned with browbeating SAHMs? So the lack of representation on the bench and in parliament, the fact that women are sexualised where men are not, the fact that women are raped and beaten out of all proportion with men, the fact that there is still a pay gap, the fact that a lot of women don't have the choice to work, they have to stay home -

(and Tulips, you are missing the Equal Pay For Equal Work part - the point is that even with equal experience and skill, the pay is different)

• do you not believe those things are problems? Or do you not associate the push to change them with feminism?

Actually, hang on, JustMyTwoPenceWorth, are you saying that being a wife and mother requires you to stay home?

Because I've chosen to be both of those things too, you know.

I'mSoNotTelling Why not say that then? "Right to work" sounds like an insult to the working women of my family, right to a break would've been nice sometimes....

But anyway, I get your point and I agree with you but the terminology is clumsy.

I have never in my whole life met a woman in a pub who wanted to have a conversation with me about feminism, mores the pity.

And I have spent a lot of time in pubs

Maybe I went to the wrong ones...

no, I mean 'just' a wife and mother. Choosing to not do anything else as well. Clearly you can be a wife, a mother, a wife and mother, a wife and worker, a mother and worker, a wife, mother and worker...

I mean me = wife and mother only.

Except I'm not, cos I'm going to start my own business again (I ran a care agency up till 5 years ago)

But the point is, it's up to me if I want to be a wife and mother and nothing else too.

Granny 23 is right. The slogan, 'right to choose' was pre Roe v Wade where the rally cry was to have a safe abortion and the woman's right to choose between continuing with a pregnancy or being able to choose abortion.

dittany, talking about groups and their power is fine when you're talking about academic debate, but it genuinely does alienate women who don't see their fathers, brothers, partners and sons are oppressors. This thread isn't about the academic debate, it's about why the majority of women can't idenitify with a philosophy that is about their benefit.

'"i believe in much more than gender equality, i believe in equality for all" Surely gender equality is equality for all? Unless there is a third gender?

Not really

because true equality is based on gender, race, sexuality, health, birth class, nationality, whether youa re disabled or a carer, or a parent......

gender is important but it is one part of a multi stranded battle, some areas of which are making more progress than others

I consider myself a feminsit (of teh choice variant) but have been criticised by women for fighting causes other than feminism. I see that as doing as much damage to teh overall equality dream as being anti feminist tbh

dittany, although no one can deny that the suffragete movement intended to give women the vote, they made very little headway despite their highly publicised actions.

it was womens necessary work in ww1 that forged the way for the 1918 representation act - and only then did householders over 30 ( female) get the vote.

its a popular myth that the sufferage movement won women the vote.

however their actions were not all in vein, i would certainly agree that their pre-war actions - which abhorred society - did lead the polititions to wonder how far they would go after the war. and the country was tired, so wealthy women over 30 were given the vote as almost a concession, a thank you for services rendered.

thats my opinion anyway.