asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

Milly, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comments re warning signs of dangerous men.
My comments re comments re the drunk mini skirted women were meant as an example of the common stereotype of a rape victim (in relation to the rape described in the op and my example) and weren't meant to imply anything about your posts.

Heartening to see that there are so few here putting forward the 'she asked for it' argument. There was a government survey last year on rape attitudes (quoted by Kat Banyard) which showed that 43% of those surveyed think that a woman 'asked for it' if she had been flirting with the rapist beforehand. 42% think the woman 'asked for it' if she'd been using drugs at the time. 36% think the woman 'asked for it' if she had been drinking. 26% think the woman 'asked for it' if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothes. I wonder who all these dodgy-attituded people are?

There are plenty on Mumsnet, Molesworth, they're just terrified of pissing Dittany off

Soapbox, that list you posted is bog-standard safety advice. It has nothing to do with women in particular, nor with sexual assault.

If you walk home, drunk, through an unfamiliar area at night, with your iPod plugged into your ears, you will be at (slightly) greater risk of being assaulted, robbed or harrassed. If you do suffer a crime, your clothing will not be counted as an invitation to your attacker ... unless [a] The crime was assault, not theft, and [b] You are a woman.

Wrt pretty girls being "spit roasted" by footballers and the like: when a woman agrees to go to a man's room for sex, she does not implicitly give permission to his friends to gang-rape her.

In fact, there is no such thing as implicit permission to assault ... despite what the media (and too many courts) seem to think.

I lost my virginity to a "date rape". I was naive, yes, but the man forced the sex and therefore he was wrong. Is naivety a crime now?

Me too, Grace, and it wasn't my fault. And what happened to you wasn't yours, either.

ItsGraceAgain I entirely agree that it is bog standard advice. My point is that there are some situations where you make yourself more vulnerable to crime. Any type of crime. That advice can be directed at anyone whether they are man or woman. The advice was from a rape support charity which is why I posted it. I really don't feel that the subtext it 'if you don't follow this it's your own fault'

Obviously it is wrong to deny justice based on anything prejudice to do with the victim. Whether it be clothing, where the crime took place, people that the victim was with etc. I haven't suggested that it should and have already pointed out that sexual assault against women is singular in that the woman needs to prove herself worthy of being the victim in our system which is just plain wrong. I also did not say that girls going up to a footballers room deserve anything other than respect of their wishes. However, I think many people would think twice about it due to the number of high profile cases. That doesn't mean that the people who choose to go are at fault it just means that others would feel they might not be safe and would choose not to.

Rape is wrong and rapist are always to blame. I just think in some situations safety advice can work.

LG;

If I willingly started having sex with a man but decided halfway through I wanted to stop, I wouldn't report him for rape if he didn't stop...I would accept that I had "asked for it"....I wouldn't walk around certain areas of London waving £50 notes around...I know I'd stand a good chance of getting mugged...

daftpunk once someone says stop. They have to stop or it is a crime.

Yes I know...but how would I ever prove it..? it would be my word against his, it just wouldn't be worth the hassle, I'd leave and put it down to experience.

Well, that's exactly what most victims of rape do in practice, DP. And rapists continue getting away with it.

Why would people think twice about going to footballers rooms?

I can't think of a time that a footballer has been found guilty of rape, from any of the high profile cases.

The consensus has been generally that the sex was consensual and that the women have made a lot of money.

Surely this will make women keen to go back to footballers rooms, if they are not going to be raped and will make lots of money?

That is what the press reports.

"* Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable."

Really?

You're stuffed if you want to move house then. Or have a dinner party. Or buy a set of clothes for a job interview.

it's bloody ridiculous.

ImSoNotTelling yes that could be the case or the ladies in question have been told that there is a low chance of a sucessful conviction and have taken the money as compensation.

I wouldn't go just incase they were true. I wouldn't feel safe. Not that anyone is asking mind.

So women should assume that the criminal justice system is failing (which of course it is) and make sure they avoid lots of situations, even if those situations don't statistically appear to be "risky", just in case?

Like walking down the road with heavy bags?

People make their own judgements about risk. I said I would avoid it personally based entirely on what the papers report. I know it's not exactly the best source of information but it would colour my thought making process.

I did not say that people should avoid situations because the courts may not back them up if things go wrong. I suggested that the reasons why some high profile cases do not make it to court is because the cps decide there isn't enough evidence. Then afterwards the women may dedcide that they aren't getting any justice so figure they might aswell have the money.

Then what is the tip list for? Surely the tip list is in order to inform women what activities carry a risk of sexual assault. And if they choose to ignore the risks - well then...

Otherwise why are they telling me to avoid carrying my shopping home from the supermarket? What is the point?

Recently a witness pulled out of a case where a man I know (married to a friend of mine mores the damned pity) raped a prostitute he has now been convicted of having trafficked into the country, the general feeling amongst many of my friedns is that she asked for it as she was a prostotute so why be a witness

I am questioning deeply how close I can be to people who think that way tbh

You can e-mail RAINN and ask them about their advice. I posted to show that some people who deal with rape victims believe that in some cases some simple steps can be taken in order to keep people safe. It's more about being more vulnerable to crime in general. I have already stated that ignoring this advice does not mean that a victim would be to blame.

Clarissimo that's horrible. I never really understand why some women condemn sex workers so thoroughly. It's not like many of them are likely to have chosen that life.

Also, your friend must be in deep denial or in a really scary place...

Dunno what RAINN is playing at giving out advice that perpetuates rape myths tbh. If you look at the UK's Rape Crisis website, this sort of advice is listed on their "Common Myths and Misconceptions" page

Thanks for that link molesworth it sums up nicely what I was getting at and what others have been saying.

Good post Dittany.

Further, pointing 100% of the blame at the perpetrator also has a protective effect for the majority of men who would never rape: my dh is as disgusted with the sex worker scenatio belowv as I am, and IMO there needs to be clear condemnation of rapists so that women and men do not have blame attributed to them under some weird fault / all men are raposts / asked for it paradigm shift