asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

Soapbox, I am really confused by your posts. You appear to be saying that (usual disclaimers in place) irrespective of the situations in which women actually get raped, we should educate women against undertaking the sorts of behaviours which make headlines and which cause people to say "she was asking for it". Like going to a footballer's room, or walking alone at night. IS that what you're saying?

I'm going to ask you for a third time: when you talk about 'accepting there are increased risks' and 'making yourself vulnerable' and 'certain situations' and 'educating women about how to keep themselves safe' - these are all direct quotes of yours-

• WHAT education? What are you suggesting that we educate women to do, or not to do? And how does that compare to dittany's list of actual rape-related 'risky behaviours'?

I'm not ignoring the realities of rape at all. I didn't say rape was flippant. You kept asking me to respond to your list when you knew fine well that it was not part of the 'type' of rape I was discussing. The media focuses in on this type of rape and that is what colours people views about it.

I've cut and paste this from RAINN. It's American but pretty much states what I've been trying to explain.

Avoiding Dangerous Situations

While you can never completely protect yourself from sexual assault, there are some things you can do to help reduce your risk of being assaulted.

• Be aware of your surroundings. Knowing where you are and who is around you may help you to find a way to get out of a bad situation.
• Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.
• Walk with purpose. Even if you don?t know where you are going, act like you do.
• Trust your instincts. If a situation or location feels unsafe or uncomfortable, it probably isn?t the best place to be.
• Try not to load yourself down with packages or bags as this can make you appear more vulnerable.
• Make sure your cell phone is with you and charged and that you have cab money.
• Don't allow yourself to be isolated with someone you don?t trust or someone you don?t know.
• Avoid putting music headphones in both ears so that you can be more aware of your surroundings, especially if you are walking alone.

I'm not blaming people for being raped. I just think that in some situations there are things that can help people stay safe.

MillyR, thanks for clarifying your post, by the way. I had misread you as well, but I agree entirely with your latter post.

Okay, Soapbox, you've cut and pasted from the very type of thing we're arguing against.

Do you not believe Dittany when she says that sober women at home with trusted friends are most at risk? Because I can pull stats if it helps.

WHY do you think that a woman walking alone, carrying bags, etc., is most at danger? And why from strangers?

I know it feels like we're browbeating you. But this is the point - those sorts of 'safety tips' are spreading the myth that rape is a crime perpetuated by shadowy strangers late at night. And it's wrong wrong wrongity wrong with a helping of wrong sauce on top.

I'm fully aware that it is a serious minority of women who are raped in this way. I'm not suggesting that it is the norm. It is much the same with sexual crimes against children which often occur in the home not by boogy men in black cloaks. I know most rapes are not from strangers but ignoring that some do occur like this seems odd.

The information I posted was from a rape crises charity.

Lol at the wrong sauce though.

But then all you're doing is directing a massive amount of energy into 'educating' women against what is actually a very small risk of rape (and again, it's not value neutral, it's a serious curtailment of freedom as compared to men) and ignoring a) the main areas of rape and again b) actual rapists.

I know there's an impulse to feel like, oh we can't do anything about most of this but aha, here's something we can do! But it's not that simple.

Those sorts of risk tip sheets
a- curtail freedoms
b- mean that when a woman does get raped in one of 'those' circumstances she is blamed
c- perpetuate the general idea that female behaviour can prevent rape
d- perpetuate the general idea that rape is usually by dark strangers in alleyways leaping out at unsuspecting young women, and therefore means that when a woman gets raped in other circumstances, it's not taken seriously either

And I do note that you're going back on yourself. You said earlier that 'some situations are more dangerous than others'. Do you mean 'walking alone at night' is more dangerous than being at home, or don't you? I'm up to the fourth time of asking this,now.

My DS is almost 3, and already has been taught that he must never hurt anyone, especially someone smaller or unable to defend themselves. He also knows that his body is his own and if someone touches it in a way he doesn't like, he can tell them to stop, and if they don't he needs to tell right away. Conversely he knows that he should never touch anyone in a way they don't like, which I sincerely hope is a lesson he carries into adulthood. When he is old enough I plan to give him the vague outline of my own rape and the devastation it has caused me, so that he knows that having sex with a woman too drunk to move is rape, and it is not a joke.

We need a campaign...mothers all over the world need to be teaching their sons that this is not ok, instead of the attitudes you sometimes have of "well she's a slut, well she'd been drinking, my son's a man and men will..." etc.

And fathers.

(You warm my cockles, Cheerful, you do)

If those tips reflected the realities of rape they should also say:

Don't get married.
Don't work.
Don't socialise.
Don't have learning disability.
Don't leave the house.
Don't stay in the house.

etc etc

Yes a minority of rape victims might have been attacked by rapists who were complete strangers hanging about in alleys, but I actually think these tips are a bit dangerous. It is like, follow the rules and you'll be OK. But that's a fallacy and women can't eliminate rape alone.

Bit of a fumble by the website IMO.

So....in that most rapists are men, and most child abusers are men, and the amount of threads on MN about lazy/abusive/substandard husbands and boyfriends, the only answer really is to be a lesbian.
Simples.

What screaminEagle said. I appreciate I may not have been as together in my explanation but it's basically what i meant.

Gay40 it may be the way forward.

It works for me. I don't mind hetereosexuals, but I don't really want them teaching my kid.

Well I can appreciate that. They might catch straight. Innocent children shouldn't be exposed to such things.

For a start they'll teach her about masculine/feminine stereotypes, and she'll end up thinking she's only good enough to be someone's wife.

They make her think it's okay to make that 'choice' when it goes against family values. Sick, sick people.

It goes against our family values, certainly. Mind, I can see why people object: two women raising a girl who truly believes she can do anything she wants when she grows up and that everyone should be treated equally.

"raping you because you put yourself in a situation that it was possible to do it"

so that's where all these daft women have been going wrong.

I am now going to get an unbreakable chastity belt and have my mouth sewn up. then hopefully I'll avoid creating a situation where someone will have to rape me.

If a woman gets drunk ( or even if she doesn't ) ...goes back to a mans flat, gets into bed with him, but then decides half way through she's not really in the mood.....I wouldn't blame the man if he didn't stop..

G40....99% of woman are hetrosexual because men are better in bed...lesbians have very boring sex lives..(offically...)

That's why we all put up with terrible men.......they're worth it..

DP - I's love to know what percentage of rapes that occur in that situation result in a conviction. Other that that I couldn't possible begin to dissect what you are saying.

When I had a lesbian friend as a flatmate she used to wake me up with the bed banging on the wall as she came.. maybe some lady just isn't doing it right for you?

and sorry you are also putting up with a terrible man.

mine's a gem, great lover and wouldn't dream of raping me or anyone else. i wouldn't settle for anything less.