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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

557 replies

Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 20:23

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

OP posts:
PussinJimmyChoos · 09/04/2010 22:22

Porto - I have to say, I don't know the answer to that I think perhaps some women's iman (faith) is so high, that they just feel they want to be more covered than just the hijab (headscarf). A canadian friend of mine who lived in Syria wore Niqab as for her, personally, she felt so uncomfortable with men looking at her

Its very much an individual thing. Of course, there are probably some scholars that say it should be worn but its not in the Koran so its not obligatory

Am really happy to answer any questions you have about Islam by the way

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 22:22

and there is big difference between a headscarf and a burka!

OP posts:
PussinJimmyChoos · 09/04/2010 22:26

forum.bismikaallahuma.org/women-islam/3914-face-veil-niqab-compulsory.html

toolly · 09/04/2010 22:32

Banning a piece of cloth is ridiculous. What do you think it will achieve?

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 09/04/2010 22:37

It's not just a piece of cloth though - it's what is has come to symbolise. I hope that banning it will send a clear message that it's not part of our culture, that women are equal to men and not simply objects, that men are able look at and interact with women without wanting to jump on them, and that women are fully integrated into our society at all times, free from this oppressive garment.

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 22:41

Thank you Puss - I like "and Allah knows the best". It does kind of reinforce that so many of these things are "man made".

I am interested as dd has several muslim friends at school. Indeed her "boyfriend" who she loves madly and is going to marry (they are 6) is muslim. I DO need to learn more about these things. (I'm guessing he won't be happy to buy me wine in my old age...)

OP posts:
Granny23 · 09/04/2010 22:42

Wukter said it all really in terms of the burka as a feminist issue -

'It seems to boil down to:
A bunch of men in the government telling you not to wear it v A bunch of men in your community telling you to wear it.'

It is only clothes. How many of the people who fuss about the burka walked down the aisle veiled and wearing a white merangue? Why did they do that?

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 22:43

If it a "piece of cloth" though tooly, why keep it?

OP posts:
MaisietheMorningsideCat · 09/04/2010 22:44

Nope - no veil or meringue here on my wedding day. Funnily enough, I don't think I know anyone who wears either of these on a daily basis

PussinJimmyChoos · 09/04/2010 22:46

Maisie - have you been in any city centre on a Friday/Saturday night lately? The men and women are NOT equal...women feeling that they have to dress a certain way in order to 'fit in' while at a club while the men get away with jeans and casual tops.

The men are leering at women, grinding up against them when they are dancing, arses are being bared by both men and women, it is a zoo and a lot of men are not restraining themselves and neither are the women quite frankly

Yet people think we live in a civilised society where women are fully integrated and the niqab is a threat to it...men and women are not integrated - the gender pay gap stil l exists. Executive board positions are held largely by men rather than women, its women who have the angst of whether to be SAHM etc rather than the men...

So, please..the issues we have as a society run far deeper than a very small minority choosing to cover their faces!!

farmerjones · 09/04/2010 22:48

every time i see something like this, it raises my hackles. if i want to wear a burkha, i bloody well will. and yes, i do mean to swear. i wish i was as articulate as i should be, but sadly i am not. saying what dress is or is not allowed is far far more of an infringement of my human rights, than not being allowed to vote.

littleducks · 09/04/2010 22:50

I dont understand how on one hand people can be saying that the hijab is pointless mas it is the attitude of leering men that needs to be changed not their view, but on the other suggesting that by banning a burkha (a slightly larger piece of cloth) that women will fully integrate into soceity

There are a multitude of reasons why women choose to wear these things and whilst impractical for things like riding a bike (though im sure the victorians managed in long skirts) can be hugely practical at other times, like when you need to get dressed and leave in a hurry (quick pull on outfit)

There are times and places when i wear a jilbab (long sleeved, ankle length dress with face exposed, hair covered with scarf) though i tend not to regularly now as it is becoming controversial, so would wear it to mosque/religous functions etc. There have been a couple of rare occassions where i have covered my face (anti war marches years ago as i felt really uncomfortable penned in in a crowd, something i wouldnt do now as seen as hostile but was much less so 7ish yrs ago)

umayma · 09/04/2010 22:50

hello all,

Muslim womens dress is supposed to be loose and not show her shape, hijab isn't just about covering your hair.

wearing a burqa, for most women has nothing to do with making a statement. The women who wear it feel that is the way they should be dressing.

wearing burqa is far closer to 'islamic dress' than jeans and a headscarf.

dittany · 09/04/2010 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littleducks · 09/04/2010 22:53

How regularly do you wear a burkha dittany?

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 22:53

The big question to me though farmerjones, is whether it is the WOMAN who chooses to dress like this, or if she is MADE to. If she chooses it that is fine.

I think the point that they are trying to make by banning it is that "we" (ine the sense of the Belgian govt in this case) can't imagine that ANYONE would wear that garb by choice, therefore they MUST be oppressed.

OP posts:
winnybella · 09/04/2010 22:55

umayma- can you please explain why the onus is on women to 'not show her shape' and cover her face as well, while there isn't similar requirement for men?
Are women equal to men or not?
And, yes, I know that men's clothing should be loose and all, but there's no requirement for them to cover their faces, they can wear pants and I can't tell you how many muslim men I see in jeans and shirt, while the only part of his wife we are able to see are her eyes?

BelleDameSansMerci · 09/04/2010 22:56

PussinJimmyChoos and yet we still, in the UK, have much more freedom as women than in many parts of the world...

At least we have the chance of an education and equality under the law. I would rather have the freedom in my culture to wear skimpy clothes if I choose (although it would probably cause a stampede in the opposite direction) than to be culturally pressured into wearing a garment which hides me from everyone outside of my immediate family.

toolly · 09/04/2010 22:57

Not disputing that Ditany but banning an item of clothing here in the UK will not achieve the things we want for women in Afghanistan.

nighbynight · 09/04/2010 22:57

Porto - you are twisting my words. I did not say that extreme Islamic clothes are used as a crusade against skimpy clothes.
However, perhaps you can envisage a society where not everyone thinks the same way - and some react against what they are seeing around them? Or do you think that everyone should be forced to think the same way, and wear the same sort of clothes?

ravenAK · 09/04/2010 22:57

Well, if the arse-baring & lack of restraint are common to both mean & women, then I'm struggling to see why wearing a burka as an antidote would need to be gender-specific.

I really struggle with this one. I'm all for people wearing whatever they want to wear - yet I don't, on a daily basis, because I wear professional garb for work rather than floating around in velvet draperies or slumming out in jeans.

I suppose that I think skimpy clubwear is voluntary & occasion-specific - no-one is obliged or expected to comply with a particular dress-code in order to go out for a Saturday night drink. If women do feel they 'have' to dress in a certain way to comply with male expectations, then to me that's part of the same problem as burka-wearing.

dittany · 09/04/2010 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 23:00

I'm very interested to know if women wearing the burka or niqab DO feel they are oppressed, or not as the case may be.

I am now thinking of nuns. Now nuns aren't oppressed. As far as I know anyway. They CHOOSE to be nuns. They dress modestly and cover their hair......

OP posts:
umayma · 09/04/2010 23:02

there are specific verses in the Qur'an telling women to cover. If you read the verses you will see it is not to oppress them.

men cover between navel and knee in loose clothing. They are not supposed to stare at women.

yes i know it pees me off too, men wearing jeans and shirt while their wife is fully covered, thats wrong on the mans part, he should be wearing islamic clothing too.

it wouldn't be practical for men to wear burqa, they are out at work, the majority of muslim women aren't and women in islam do not have to work.

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 09/04/2010 23:02

Yes, I've been in town on a Friday and Saturday night, but I'm afraid I don't recognise the picture you're describing. We may not be quite there in terms of full equality, but the burka sets us back years. I see it as a 'choice' that we had many years ago when women covered their ankles in these ridiculous skirts and displayed extreme modesty at all times. It may have been a 'choice' that they made, but according to whom and what?