So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

argh the whole thing does my head in

of course it isn't right to be restricted on how to react by clothing

Meant to add that the woman in the documentary did not come from a family where the niqab was worn. She said that she sprung the decision on her husband - they were going out somewhere or other and when he saw her in the niqab he said "You're not going out in that are you?"

The other thing she said was that when her parents had come to France, they had made a big effort to 'integrate', and she felt that the children of that generation were resentful about the way their parents had repudiated their cultural/religious identity in order to 'integrate' and yet had been treated like crap by the state and the French people, therefore some of the younger generation born in France are reclaiming symbols of muslim identity like the niqab to make a political statement.

Can you really imagine "deferring" to your DH? Compromising perhaps but deferring?

It's in part a political decision to wear a burka. It's a metaphorical 'up yours' to the moral panic and general hysteria that is going on since 9/11.
It's mixture of defiance, orthodoxy, and assertion of identity in this new bad mad world!

Is it REALLY that though toolly?

I do agree though about the general hysteria, otherwise why would the Belgium govt mention "public safety" as one of the reasons why burqas should be banned.....

Me wearing a push up bra probably has more "safety issues" than your average burka wearer. Be afraid, be very afraid....

I know, Portoeufino. I actually commented (not very articulately) on it, even though I'm not a Muslim, as that post(or rather the poster's submissive behaviour) actually shocked me.
I guess she was looking for an advice from a religious point of view, so might have kept my mouth shut.

Burkha- in the end the problem is much bigger than that, isn't it? It's the position of woman in some of the muslim societies. If a woman wants to wear it, fine, but in how many cases it's the result of brainwashing or pressure?

I was more shocked by the replies winny. Islam as a religion doesn't subjugate women any more than christianity does. Culture on the other hand......

As BelleDame says, why would you defer to your dh....

Well I would in cases where he is obviously the expert. Like the the Wii, or the inner workings of the car. Not that I am incapable of understanding these things...I just can't be arsed.

Why are people uneasy? Because it's a statement/symbol of faith? Or are we worried about the security and identification issues? Or do we believe that a woman who wears a burka is oppressed and we feel uncomfortable about it? A woman wearing trousers would have been scandalous not that long ago. I reiterate my point made earlier, for some it is a fashion/political point.

Do YOU wear one toolly?

Erm...tooly...I don't think a woman wearing trousers even 90 years ago would make others feel uncomfortable, because she was thought to be oppressed.

I see it as a clash of feminism and patriarchy.
A fight over women's bodies (similar in many ways to the arguments about the abolition of prostitution).
Again, it someone else's agenda.

Fashion - now that I don't believe. I see and speak to Muslim women every day. Fair enough they dress "modestly" by Western standards, but they still express their own style and individuality. If it is a "political point" to wear a burka, what point exactly is it that they are trying to make?

No. I don't wear a burka.

Christian women wore head covering over the ages as well, so it's not just contained to Islam.
As Portoeufino said, it's not the Islam subjugating the women, but rather the cultures that, and I don't care if it's not PC, are centuries behind in according the same human rights to all people, not just men.

When I say fashion I don't mean the style of clothes. I mean it's fashionable. Like being green. In the sixties when there was a lot of consciousness about black peoples roots the afro became popular. It was a way of asserting a new proud black identity that challenged mainstream white society. It showed you were black and proud. I see that now with the burka. It's used as a tool (among some) to assert their identity as a muslim in this post 9/11 world.

Until we see men clamouring to wear the burkha I'll see it as oppression of women and a symbol of Taliban rule. I saw a woman wearing one today, beside her dh/dp who was wearing a tight t-shirt and all blinged all - and thought, nope, that's not right.

Porto - I was on that thread you mentioned the other day and I didn't imply for her to defer to her husband at all - I said a balance needed to be struck between the child learning about Islam and having fun!

I'm Muslim and not a fan of the niqab at all mainly because I am deaf and need to lipread and there isn't anything in Quran about covering the face so my personal opinion is that it isn't reequired but the women I know that do wear niqab do it because they want to, not because their husbands are standing over them brandishing a stick!

Yes, there are women that are forced into wearing it but then there are women out there in abusive relationships by non Muslim men who are probably made to go out without make up or similar as per their husbands wishes - so forcing of a dress style isn't just confined to Muslim men. The difference is the media reporting of it because the focus of the media is very much anti Islamic and they know that an article about immigrants complete with a niqab wearing woman gets their target audience riled up!

So women wear burkas (highly impractical clothing to put it mildly) to assert their identity?

TBH, I think if the burka didnt exist, it would be invented, as a reaction against the general skimpiness of womens clothes.

In hot summer, if you travel on public transport, who is showing acres of flesh, wearing tight skimpy vests and uncomfortable high heels - yes, its the women.

And who's wearing loose, comfortable clothes that protect them against the sun - yup, the men.

In this situation, its not surprising that a small minority of women will take an extreme reaction to what the majority are wearing.

I would say that in London, its probably an expression of individuality and free will. In rural Afghanistan, its probably oppression. So dont ban it in London.

Certainly a headscarf is used like that. And why not a burqua?

Puss - it is good to hear your point of view. I have a question straight off though . If the Koran says nothing about covering your face, why do muslim women WANT to cover their faces? If it is not obligatory, why do this?

I don't mean this in a disrepectful way - I am honestly interested!

I'm genuinely mystified as to why any woman would want to go out wearing a garment which was/is part of the Taliban regime, and that covers her completely, setting her apart from society - while the men can wear whatever the heck they want?

nighbynight - sorry so now women wear burkas to protest about women wearing skimpy clothing on the tube! That surely is the biggest pile of bollocks ever!