So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

Priests said buggering young boys was God's work, doesn't mean that it is so.

It is a conveniently oppressive and misogynistic attire. All too often you see men and boys in shorts and t shirts and little girls, really young girls, and women covered up. Absolutely disgusting. Why would an eight year old need to be modest, it stinks of really vile connotations about the sexuality of young girls.

I have not left yet Sakura, but I do realise bit by bit that what I thought was feminism clearly is not quite correct and I do not think I can bring much to the debate anymore.

My understanding was that feminism aimed at giving women choice of what life they want to lead. Now after reading this thread and the other one Riven got me interested in, I feel the actual meaning is that if you do things according to your faith (without being bullied to do so even) and you do not earn squillions of money you cannot be a feminist.

I hear/read women on those thread telling me I should not live by rules imposed according to them by men (to me they are imposed by God, not by men but as said previously my choice not everybody's)yet they want to impose there ways on me. It seems that I am really letting the side down by having chosen not to work, while my children are not al of school age,and cover my head but until someone explains to me how I will feel happier following Xenia's and others way rather that the one I chose for myself I do not think I will adhere to the feminism much more.

My life has not been imposed to me by any human of the male species and I do not intend it to be imposed to me on by any woman either.

"Priests said buggering young boys was God's work, doesn't mean that it is so." I do not think thst is true at all, I think they new perfectly well what they were doing was wrong hence keeping it a secret/hidng it.

The point is just because misguided and deluded women believe their oppression is a matter of their own expression and choice it does make it so. Society today has no place for a nicab or a burkha. The whole notion of covering up to please one's maker and shield men from their own lustful advances makes my teeth itch.

The relevance is that the burkha is a symbol of segregation.

White elderly people are victims of the nuclear family and being squeezed out and not by their want to be separate.

You have to hand it to Riven, she is very good at this. Note how she ducks the question yet again and tries to deflect the issue.

"There are studies that show the most 'segregated' type of poeple in the UK (by segregated I mean have no friends unlike themslves) are white elderly church-goers."

Considering that 85% of the general population (must be higher for older agegroups) are white and 70% are Christian, this is hardly surprising. You'll be telling us next that the Pope is usually a catholic.

But elderly people can be forgiven for not making efforts to mix with Muslims or other new(ish)populations, they have had enough years to make friends. Muslim women who cover up in this tolerant country, this country where our Monarch is Head of the Church of England are insulting the country in which they live. If they want to wear a Burkha or Nicab there are many countries that support this oppression, I just wish the UK wasn't one of them. If you come to live here surely you want to live by the laws and social norms of the UK. As for converted indigenous people then I would be very if they wore a nicab or burkha. I love the fact that many different people can live here and hope they do so with relative freedom to live their lives as they see fit but a working society still needs a little uniformity and covering oneself up from head to toe is making a loud statement that you don't want to be part of this society.

i would argue that MOST nicab wearing Muslims don't want non muslim friends.

But posieparker, the truth is that it's the indigenous converts that form a great majority of women who wear niqab. I guess they are more enthusiastic about new-found religion and perhaps want to 'show it off' as much as they can?
That is definitely the case here in France.

And as for choosing people to be friends with I can't think of any prejudices I have except racist or horrifically criminal people.

Kind of like too many piercings then!! That need to stand out, rather childish really.

Well I wouldn't ban it but I hope we manage to convince most women in the UK it's ridiculous to wear it and not even required by their religion and I am delighted I live in a country where I am free to say so.

I just cannot conceive of a God who would be so unfair to allow the scenario I saw in Iran.On part of my trip I was in the Persian Gulf. Hot sun, could see out over the beach. Men and boys dressed as in the west - swimming trunks, just like men wear in Brighton when it's warm. Women completely swathed in black. This is a very very feminist issue. Why shouldn't the men be secluded away and have to cover up and women go naked on the beach? Why do these men fear female sexuality which was made by God? Why can Western men cope with seeing girls in bikinis on British beaches when it's warm enough but for some reason arab men need to be shielded from the awful presence of female flesh and why is it so one sided - always women curbed and curtailed when I really don't think the Koran, Bible or most religious books at heart really require it and why do all these women accept it? Thankfull most don't and plenty of muslims don't even wear a head scarf.

IMO if you live in the UK, you should attempt to integrate. My family have. In fact, my parents thought it was vitally important to social harmony that we did so.

fuzzy - I read translations of Quran, not its "interpretations". The part of the Quran we are talking about is not a "beautiful poem". It is a set of instructions. As such, it is fairly easy to translate: lower your gaze, don't show your private parts & adornments, and extend your headcover over your bosom.

No mention of covering the face, anywhere.

Then it goes on in excruciating detail which male members of society are exempt from this rule:

"except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess (slaves), or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women."

An author who goes into this much detail about who can see, also details what should be covered: headscarf over bosom.

Not eyes. Not lips. Not the nose.

Is that quite right? I think it says modesty for both and men from neck to knee ( so no swimming trunks on the beach in Iran I suppose for men unless you wear a top and the trunks come down to the knee as they did in Victorian England and then as you say it says women as be as uncovered as they like to in essence family. That a bit sexist but it was just written in its time. I am sure God doesn't expect it to be followed even there to the letter and most people know that.

People who leave a country and culture and move abroad often do keep traditions closer than those abroad who laugh at their cousins who moved to the UK and abide by rules stricter than is the case at home. It gives them a sense of security abroad. Anyway the British tend not to ban things which is why people love our country and want to live here and I doubt there is much chance we'll ban covering up.

Iirc, there are only two verses in the Quran that give instructions on this subject:

24:31 - And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment unnecessarily and to extend their headcovers over their bosoms and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

In other words, no mention of knees, no mention of eyes etc. Basically, lower your gaze, be modest, cover your bosom with part of your headscarf, don't show your body unnecessarily, and don't flash your adornments/valuables. This last bit probably refers to jewellery, but some people in power in certain places seem to have decided it refers to every inch of a woman's skin, and therein lies the present dilemma.

Personally, I would think that if He went through the trouble of listing every single male exemption to this rule, the Author would also have mentioned "the face" among body parts to be covered. He has not.

So really we could argue muslim women who totally cover are (a) disobeying the will of God and perhaps should be had up for heresy and public lashing (b) are inherently sexist and (c) can't really read or love the sexism of following wrong male rules which are probably against the will of God. Silly them.

Overzealous, rather. As with most things religious - as in, "God told me to cover my bosom, but if I cover everywhere, I will do so much better".

Consider Muslim art. Mohammad (God?) forbids any visual depiction of himself, because he fears being worshipped a la Catholic iconography. Sensible man, you might think. Then the zealots take over and what happens? Total ban on all depictions of anyone at all, so they end up mastering geometric art.

Similarly, Mohammad (God?) says be modest, don't flash your flesh or valuable possessions. Sensible, right? Then the zealots take over and what happens? The burqa.

Of course, Islam is not singularly egregious in this respect. Bible says "Suffer not a witch to live", and tens of thousands of women get tortured and burnt alive for anything from having a cat to having a few moles on their faces.

Good post, CoteDAzur.

posieparker, " Muslim women who cover up in this tolerant country, this country where our Monarch is Head of the Church of England are insulting the country in which they live. If they want to wear a Burkha or Nicab there are many countries that support this oppression, I just wish the UK wasn't one of them. If you come to live here surely you want to live by the laws and social norms of the UK."
Wasn't the church of England created on very dodgy grounds? Something to do with Henry wanting 6 wives or something. YOu can hardly use that in a feminist argument. As a Welsh person myself I am from the UK and I don't even really know what the church of England is and I have no interest in knowing,( seeing as the English killed off our last prince all those years ago . )Anyway, I digress..
I believe the women who wear the burqua or whatever when they say they're doing it because they want to. I'm not a proponent of neo-liberalism, so on principle I don't agree with it because its an individual's choice to do so, but if some women are doing it as a feminist choice (for the reasons discussed above) then I believe them. There are more pressing female concerns in society than whether a woman is wearing this or that.