So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

purits, the problem is that the interpretation of "just everyday clothes like any self-respecting woman would wear" varies dramatically, to me that is loose clothing (so a knee length top if i have trousers on, of an ankle length skirt or a jilbab with a scarf that covers my haid, neck and chest shape) but to other muslim women it includes a face veil to others in wider soceity a knee length skirt and a smart shirt would apply.

Alot of muslims feel that there would be a gradual banning of hijab items too, which is prob why the reaction is one of horror even if there are very few british muslims who wear an afghan style burkha but more in a jilbab with ao ban a niqaab. It is a worry that the next step would be a banning of a headsarf etc.

If they were headscarf hijabs i would have to emigrate, so it is a strongly felt issue. My husband has cousins in France who were affected by the hijab ban in schools and it has made the teenage years very troubled and left them feeling torn.

We don't know the gramercy observed woman feels and also if you're brought up in one culture and can be perfectly happy. Slaves, beaten women, religious and aetheist women, women in poverty and women with millions can all be happy with their lot but there are issues beyond personal happiness that matter.

I wouldn't bank the burka or headscarves except in limited work circumstances but I would ban FMG as we have. I would ban rape in marriage which we did in my life time - it didn't used to be a criminal offenec in marriage ; I would give women the vote and I would ensure they had rights to access the English legal system no matter what religion they are. In other words we draw a line. I would also ensure we retain our freedom of speech, the right to say XYZ are idiots and ABC is a load of rubbish.

I did once comment to DH that I found the walking a few steps behind (which I do not do unless with a dc that walk slowly) a bit ridiculous. I loved his answer to that:

The British thing was and is the man walking on the kerb side so he can protect you from water splashing up from the roads.

I am gobsmacked that you find walking a few steps behind "a bit" ridiculous. I find it totally ridiculous. Are the men ever required to walk behind women or is it another one of those things where women have to abase themselves in order to prove how exalted they are or somesuch convoluted crap.

I thought a man walked on the outside so that he could access his sword freely?

mumblechum and Xenia - you are both correct. The man walks on the outside (kerbside) to protect a lady not only from splashes but from attack, hence easy access to his sword. It all dates back to the time of horses, carts and highwaymen etc.

These are very feminist issues of course. Should I reject men on dates who do the walking thing on the ground they are sexist pigs and that I can handle my own sword thank you very much?

Well if someone can handle a sword it would have to be you Xenia (princess warrior and all that)!

This what most women don't want and particularly women who believe in equality. We want to be landmine experts. There's a snake on my island, the island I bought with my own money which I earned, not money given to me by a man. Women can handle their own snakes and their own guns, particularly mulsim women. Their fire arms skills are really coming to the fore and good for them. The burka as military device etc.

I think Xenia was joking, too

omg an island like canvey island xenia!!!!

THat woman walking behind the man thing is Japanese too. I apparently made a faux pas on my wedding day by strutting into the reception and through the guest tables ahead of DH. I was "corrected" by the hotel staff. . I gave DH an ear-full later. He was embarrassed that I was asked to do that and he didn't predict it beforehand.

All these Japanese examples I keep thinking of make me more and more sure that the west's horror of all things Islamic is cultural based more than anything else. If most people saw a woman walking through London in a kimono they'd think it was interesting, beautiful, chic (as are a lot of the muslim- style headscarves) and the word "oppressed" wouldn't enter their minds, and yet a kimono is extremely restrictive. YOu can hardly breathe- it ties you in with ropes so you can't bend forward and are forced to do those little tiny steps. This is going to sound strange but it's almost like a kind of masochism. It was too restrictive, not normal at all; like the corsets in Victoria england, I suppose.

But Western society doesn't view the kimono with any real negative connotations, not in the same way they view the muslim headscarf. I wonder why? Is it because the religion has so many members; whereas other cultural oddities like the kimono only exist on a small scale?

Someone here said before that the word "burqa" doesn't have nice connotations and so with her muslim friends she uses a different word. I've been wondering why this was. Is there something lost in translation?

WHen I say "cultural oddities" I mean from a western point of view, not that other cultures are odd!

I'm not sure I want women picking up swords like men. Lead by example and all that. I'm horrified that in Israel they sentence not just your sons to death on the battle-field but now your daughters too. That's not equality. That's the big men who create wars using girls as cannon fodder.

And I mention Israel because thats the only country I know where military service is compulsory for girls. I also find women in the military hard to stomach because I just see them as being cannon-fodder. Was it a woman who pressed the button that dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima? Nope. If a woman had been in charge that day, would she have made the same decision: to wipe out a city and burn everyone in it to death? I sincerely hope that a woman would not have done that. I can't be sure, though; but all I can do is hope that woman are in some way different to men.

That is terribly sexist Sakura, though isn't it? Why shouldn't women be in favour of nuclear power and lead armies? Women fight well and lead troops. They are as competent and keen suicide bombers as men too as I was saying above.

Of course people in the West know kimonos make it hard to move in but they tend not to wear them that much, and most of our knowledge of women being curtailed by men has been Chinese footbinding. We know all about that. What about Japanese women having to put on stupid high pitch voices because that's the done thing? It's a ridiculous culuture. I'm not saying the British weren't as bad in some ways in our history we just seemed to give rights to women sooner than some other cultures but they are all catching up so it's fine really although women do need to keep fighting for fairness and equality.

"Why shouldn't women be in favour of nuclear power and lead armies? "

For the same reason men shouldn't be in favour of those things: because what a shit world it would be then. Somebody has to say enough!. I don't think trying to be like the men is going to help anyone. God help us if women (and men) do continue go in that direction.

Yes, women are very competent suicide bombers. Most of the suicide bombers in that school in Beslan were Chechen women, whose families had been killed by Russian troops. I don't know if the differences between men and women are nature or nurture but I'm just saying please don't let us emulate men or think that the example men have set is the way we should all live, because then we really are all doomed.

I must admit that I didn't know the kimono was so restrictive: I think of it (if I ever do think of it!) as a sort of dressing gown affair, with its comfortable overtones.

However, the kimono is not part of everyday dress, is it? It is only worn for special occasions, unlike muslim clothes which are required every time the wearer is in public. Isn't it in the same league at all.

Again: how much do Japanese women do the walking-behind thing? You said that you and your DH were caught unawares at your wedding reception so it doesn't sound like common practice. I'm not saying that it is right but I can't get as uptight about one-offs during cultural events as I do about everydays. One is a nod to the quaint historical past, the other is a current mindset.

Walking behind the man is not an islamic law it's etiquette, I don't know many Muslims men or women who insist upon it, or practice it! Actually to be very honest I dont know one single Muslim couple who do this at all!

Hijab is no different than throwing a jacket on for Muslim women, it's just more covering so I can do my tesco shop in my pyjamas without being chucked out (anyone read that story of the mum who went shopping in tesco in her pyjamas and got thrown out for it, she was wearing tescos pyjamas too!).

Discussing and debating the merits of hijab is fair enough, imposing your views and beliefs on another by forcing them to confirm to what you view is liberated dress is opressive.

Also with regards what various muslims have to say on the matter of hijab and niqab, and the quotes from muslims that have been pasted on here, a knowledgeable scholar in training put it very well when she said
"I think the world would be a much better place if people understood just one basic principle of practicing Islam which is 'la inkaara fi masa'il ikhtilaafiyah' - that a lay person does not have the right to condemn or reject another person's acting on a different opinion on an issue in which there is more than one opinion among the scholars. A perfect example of this is hijab/niqab, jilbab/not jilbab, etc, but this extends to so many different areas of practice. We just need to give each other some room to breathe sometimes... "

"It's a ridiculous culture"

Your sweeping statements always make me smile...Yes, there are ridiculous parts about it... But you'll be pleased to know that in Asian period films and dramas(chinese and Japanese) that I see here women are often on the battlefield. The CHinese films have women leading troops, though I've never seen a Japanese woman leading troops on a film. And the women are not "eye-candy" like they are in Hollywood films; they have very plain faces and deep voices. There are martial arts designated for women, like "Naginata". It's a huge and heavy staff with a long, sharp blade at the tip of it. But if a woman wanted to do a traditionally male martial art, that would not be considered strange. My daughter's favourite cartoon consists of 3 superhero girls.

I think that's a good example of how culture can get lost in translation and we can apply it to western people's indignation at the Islamic dress. You can't just take one aspect of a culture and write the whole culture off as being inferiour.

inferior