So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

Actually, come to think about it, in Japan there seems to be one set of rules for some women (the lotus-flower type) and another set for another type of woman (very butch). I've no idea what factors contribute to little girls identifying with one or the other.

My goodness - I am very impressed that this is still going! And there such a lot of thoughtful/thought provoking posts too. I asked to be educated and I certainly have been. I have been doing a bit of background reading when I have a mo too. Thank you!

french Feminist group called "the Bitches (female dog) ward(note that in English it has been translated to "she-Ward" which IMHO is much more appropriate)

I only could find the translation in English of the Manifesto (clic Manifesto and you then have on the bottom left the choice of English)

While I think their fight is most definitely right, the way they go about it is so so wrong.

I think the following two examples of actions taken by "Les chiennes de guard" tie really well with Sakura's point about women feeling valued without having to emulate men. Especially if you think that what the men are doing is wrong, since everybody is aware that two wrongs hardly ever make a right.

• for every woman who is called a bitch all women should feel insulted themselves.

I totally agree but then why call themselves bitches ward???

• We want to preserve the dignity of women.

By wolf whistling at men and swearing at men who hold the door for you? dignity indeed

I am for a world where men and women respect each other not a world where I should be proud to swear because men do it.

This fundamental issue that men might be wrong I don't like. I think it's not fair on men to say that and it also implies sexism. I believe in nuclear power. I think wars can sometimes be justified and that sometimes we have to kill for the greater good. Those aren't male values. People hold the values. I don't think women are some completely different species and if we were in charge suddenly the world would be better.

The prospect is a bit scary Riven, as I am not usually good to convey that message either but if you link to it I will at least lurk.

"This fundamental issue that men might be wrong I don't like." I agree with you Xenia. When I said "Especially if you think that what the men are doing is wrong" I was refering to Les Chiennes de garde thought process: men should not treat women the way they do let's just do like them and treat them badly n return. I think the end result is that men , whatever they do cannot be right. If they have the macho(wolf whistle) behaviour they are wrong and if they are gentlemen(keep a door open for a woman) they are wrong too.

The only way for things to change is respect and discussion, and trying to understand what makes one tick.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a woman who works the same job as a man should have equal salary and opportunities to further their career. But I do not want to do things because someone thinks I m worthless if I don't. I wish to stay at home and look after my children for the time being because I feel it is my responsability to do so and I happen to like it as well. I just read the other thread Riven invited me too and there are things that to me are not right to me. A poster who said that she works with her Dh because it is her responsability fair enough, but who looks after the Dcs while this happens? A chilminder, a nursery nurse... someone who thinks looking after children is a job in any case. It means to me that if a woman/man looks after someone else's children it is "work" but if you decide to look for free after your own dcs, teach them, nurture them it becomes an antifeminist way of life. Why?

Now I am going to go back to the covering issue a bit . This thread had me thinking long and hard. I started wearing a headscarf 6 month ago. I met DH 13 years ago and we have been married for 12 1/2 years. Do you not think that if he had coherced(sp?) me into it it would have taken me 12 years to get the message?

What happened is that on my last birthday, like most people, I felt the fact that I am not getting any younger. One day I will die and according to my belief, I will then be questionned by my Creator about what I have done in my life to deserve rewards in the Hereafter. Now I do know that wearing a scarf wil not guaranty my place in paradise, but it might "erase" a few of my bad deeds and facilitate things for me. If anything, wearing a headscarf was the most ultimatly selfish decision I made in my life because I took into account myself and myself only.

So When I walk in the street and sometimes I sense people thinking "that poor oppressed woman" with a look of pity, they could not be more wrong. I am not in the least oppressed. I do now with my headscarf the very same things I used to do when I was not wearing one six month ago, only with more confidence. How can that be a bad thing?

Having people believing that I was pushed/forced into it really says more about them than it does about my condition as a woman.

OMG that was a bit long!

I dislike the burqa because, to my western eyes, it implies that it is fine for women to be invisible and voiceless ? to be socially negated.

However, western society grants women freedoms, and I use that word purposefully, that are unimaginable in places where the burqa is prevalent.

So, on that basis, I disagree that it should be banned or restricted in the West. Women should be granted the freedom to wear whatever they want. I won?t deny that freedom to imprison yourself. But I can tell you that I bloody well disapprove of it.

if you think a lump of cloth is going to eradicate sin... well that would be a pretty silly God to think so. As we've discussed above it is not at all clear in Islam if women need to cover at all. In fact you might have it all the wrong way round and God made us as we are in beautiful nakedness and silly mankind got people covered up. if you do it late in life as plenty of people do in finding religion that's a bit bad too - have 50 years of bad deeds and then turn to God late on to ensure a place in the hereafter.

Anything that enables women to be heard is a good thing whether that's mumsnet or the fact they're a world leader.

On the point of stuff being male or not, that's when sexism gets rooted. The Victorians genuinely believed women didn't have the right minds and bodies to be doctors. They thought we would have the vapours, faint and just not be intellectually up to being surgeons although of course we were perfectly fit enough to clean up sick like Florence Nightingale.

When a meeting of Opec leaders is 95% female I might rest.

It doesn't have to be 95% all the time but if things were equal then some of the time a Board might be 100% women or 60 or 40% and other times the other way about. I'm not just picking on the middle east. Africa is pretty sexist. Japan is appalling in some ways and look at how many baby girls are murdered every year in China and India just because they are female. Feminism has hardly started on this planet. Look at how many housewives on mumsnet put up with sexist men on thread after thread too.

Part of the answer is to educate girls and it's working here reasonably well.

That is not what I said Xenia. I beleive that the more things I do that were asked from me from God (not a man) the greater my chances. You can laugh all you want and find me ridiculous I do not really care as I am big enough to realise it is my faith and not yours. That is is me out of feminist threads though because they are not there to make things better or find a way where people would actually try to understand each other.

'As we've discussed above it is not at all clear in Islam if women need to cover at all.'

Xenia you gave some views of a couple of female authors about this. they are not scholars.

look at the females who are attending madrassas, religious schools, who are studying the religion, look what are they wearing.

IMO covering up is a post-9/11, Saudi influenced fad that will hopefully pass in time. Nothing more, nothing less.

But it has the unintended consequence of disrupting civil society in some instances, so women should consider very carefully whether they should take part in this.

No I agree that all things male shouldn't be hated, and if you knew me IRL you would know that I don't hate men. I have lots of brothers, a very close gay friend, my DH and they are the loves of my life.

But the reason I swing so far the other way in these discussions is because it's generally agreed by all (apart from feminists) that male viewpoints are people's viewpoints , for example: war is natural and inevitable and therefore (even some feminists agree that) women might as well join in.
I don't think men are all aggressive war-mongerers. Some men have been very supportive of feminism (I love George ORwell- so wise and ahead of his time). But destabilizing patriarchy and doing away with the way that "male" traits and endeavours are glorified in our culture is complicated. The worst of male excesses unfortunately play a big part in most societies and I should imagine this is because the most aggressive and narcisstic males are the ones that wrest all the power from everyone else. So I'm really just talking about those men. Unfortunately the power in society is unnaturally skewed in their favour.

"This is entirely untrue. a) Women do not fight 'on the front lines'. They work at checkpoints, deskjobs, etc.
b) women are initially drafted but it takes a 5 minute interview to request and receive a dispensation - I know - because I have one. "

Ah, I see, sorry.
What is the thinking behind distinguishing men and women's work in the Israeli army? Is it out of respect for women's child-bearing capabilities or is it because they believe the front-line is "dangerous" for women?

Is war an exclusively male activity then? I agree that historically men have been the ones doing the fighting,but women in positions of power haven't been notable on the whole for their peaceful and non violent approach,IMO.
If you accept at any level the idea of a just war,then surely women should be prepared to contribute,including fighting if necessary,and any army needs back up staff - if you are saying "women should not contribute to war" they shouldn't be in the forces at all. If you are saying "women should not be exposed to the risk of injury/death because they are women",I find that illogical!
I'm not at all convinced that a society without men would be a war free utopia.

Pogleswood,
As far as I can see women have only been able to reach positions of power because of how well they've moulded into the male model of how a person in power should behave.

I am saying that if you are a feminist you have two options: to fight with the men or to be a pacifist and say that any fighting is wrong.
You say that even if women were in power there would still be war but I don't think that war has to be inevitable. Considering men's natural biological differences (testosterone/adrenaline etc)s, and then thinking of the the sheer investment that women make in child-bearing/ giving life compared to men from the very moment they TTC, I think that yes, on the whole we would be better off if men had less power in decision making than they already do. Pregnancy is a waiting game. A pregnant woman has to slow down because creating a new life takes time. The waiting becomes unbearable at the end of the pregnancy and by that point the woman ususally doesn't care about the birth because she just wants the baby out. A man would have a different perception of time during his wife's pregnancy because he doesn't have to slow down. So I think that on the whole women may have a greater understanding of how much it entails to create a life; and a greater perception of how much would be lost you blasted a city with an atom bomb: how many pregnancies, how many childbirths...