So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

"A pregnant woman has to slow down"

When was this rule invented?

gor, pity to leave but I think it's good this thread has a variety of women on it -it's a good thing to hear each other's views

uma, that's your view but it's not the case that majorities are right. The majority of people int he UK in 1860 thought women should not be allowed to own property or vote. Majorities including in religions can often be wrong and I will be happy to verify to everyone after death and warrant here and now that God made our bodies as they are and thinks it's ridiculous people cover them up. The fact it's usually women who have to cover them up doesn't help feminism either. Show me a religion with more body covering and rules for men than women.

So we don;'t even have Israel with women soldiers. Oh dear. But in the British army thankfully things are changing and eveni f they aren't all allowed to do everythign in practice they are because of troop shortage.

The thing about feminism is that some feminist will be capitalists as I am and some thinking being home baking bread is a nice enough choice and we should hale the woman at home on her knees scrubbing the floor as much as Golda Meir, Benazir Bhutto, or Margaret Thatcher or Angela Merkel. I don't agree - I think we need more women with more choices, more money and more power. Secondly feminists can also be pacifists but not necessarily.

So you might get some feminists saying women never like to fight or make money or lead but that's pernicious in my view. It is like those Victorians I mentioned who all thought women just couldn't cut it as doctors because they were female. Give girls a chance and they can do most things and want to.

GRRRR I feel I have to come back now. [forget one's pride emoticon]

"I think it's good this thread has a variety of women on it -it's a good thing to hear each other's views" Yes I do too. What I do not like is being patronised for having a different opinion or way of life to yours.

I really do not need people to agree with me, in fact I usually quite enjoy a good debate. I think it ias possible to desagree with someone without showing contempt to them anf felt that you were treating me like an idiot. I might be wrong and over sensitive though, it would not be the first time.

Are you assuming I came to religion late in life? why? I started to wear a scarf later than I would have wanted, that is all. Until very recently I was worried of the opinion of people and did not dare. When "maturing" a little bit I realised that what I wanted and what I thought was right for me was more important than the opinion people I do not even know have of me.

No, I was expressly the view that religiously I don't think covering a head later in life makes up for the sins of earlier in life or that God could possibly be bothered about what women wear (except perhaps that she / he might be a bit cross that the wonderful bodies he created are hidden away as if they were shameful by the idiocy of mankind).

But I certainly would never want to patronise anyone and I can even see the advantage of older women who get fatter and have grey hair finding the burka thing actually quite convenient. The British middle class woman used to wear them all the time when their hair didn't look right.

I also think most women by their 30s and 40s feel more confidant than teenagers and 20 somethings and do what they think is right which is great. It's nicer than being younger I think.

"So you might get some feminists saying women never like to fight or make money or lead but that's pernicious in my view"

Not seen any who say that on this thread though, thankfully

"No, I was expressly the view that religiously I don't think covering a head later in life makes up for the sins of earlier in life or that God could possibly be bothered about what women wear (except perhaps that she / he might be a bit cross that the wonderful bodies he created are hidden away as if they were shameful by the idiocy of mankind)."

Yes, I agree with all that. I am not a muslim but I have discussed Islam with lots of muslims from various backgrounds and countries (male and female) and the one aspect I did not really "get" was the notion point-scoring with God. For example if you manage to convert another person into a muslim you get more points. If there is a GOd I'm not sure he would be too impressed with this line of thinking.

"Not seen any who say that on this thread though, thankfully"

Actually, just realised there may be women who say that on this thread, but what I wanted to say was that it's not me. And my point about fighting was by all means go and fight other people in a battle field with weapons. I'd be all in favour for a return of that kind of fighting. BUt what you have these days is a man putting his index finger over a button that will bomb a city full of children. That doesn't take much skill, dexterity or strength, does it? Bring back the days where a woman could take up a sword and defended her honour herself on the battlefield. BUt those days have long gone.

About leading: I think women should lead but not in the model of a male image of what a leader should be.
About money: I think women should make money but that will only happen when men and women stop thinking that what women do is naturally inferior.

So, we're on the same side...

gorionine,
Don't leave! How boring it would be if we all had the same viewpoint.

OK, so supposing that I accept that women are wearing hijabs etc voluntarily:
They wear this garb because one man over a millenium ago said that his imaginary friend told him so.
This one man wrote down sexist rules that you consider still relevant, condone and live you life by.

As a feminist atheist I shall stop being worried that fellow women are being oppressed and, instead, conclude that you are deluded and irrational.

fuzzy - This thread is about the burqa, which does cover the face.

To the extent that anything can be "interpreted" if one is inclined to twist the meanings of words, I guess you can say that women who cover their faces (with veil or burqa) are doing what they think Quran is telling them to do. Try as I might, I can't see how those few sentences in the Quran can possibly be interpreted thus. Quran is very specific about what to do & what not to do, and if God wanted women to cover their cheeks, noses, eyes, etc He would have said so. Just as easily as he said to cover your bosoms.

I don't read Arabic, so yes, you could have an insight into the exact meaning of these words that I wouldn't. So please, do share. What exactly is God saying in the Quran that could possibly warrant covering up your entire face and even your eyes in a burqa?

Cote, the instructions in the Quran are to cover with the outer clothing, the extent of covering is debated amongst scholars.

However, that does not mean a woman who covers completely due to what she believes to be the correct interpretation of the meaning is wrong. You can't go round saying well this is what I've read and my understanding is this and I'm right, it's fair enough for you, and IMHO it is perfectly correct for a woman who covers completely who has researched and arrived at her own conclusion. Providing she is practicing the niqab of her own free will.

You could have read the passage in Surah Nur and decided it is only attributable to the women directly related to the Prophet (pbuh), or that you dont need to wear anything if you're bald and dont wear valuables, or whatever, your interpretation does not make anothers incorrect.

I reckon the fact that so many Muslim women who practice hijab/niqab in the face of such outright hostility from non-muslims, we at the very least should give eachother a break.

I've never been remotely moved to ire over anothers clothing choices, altho I was a bit put out to see a chapp strolloing nekkid past Topshop one summers day (I could have done with some sort of warning, he was not a pretty sight!)

Are you not going to explain, with your knowledge of Arabic, HOW the Surah Nur can POSSIBLY be "interpreted" to warrant covering up women's entire faces?

This is an issue that makes me . The face covering is a cultural, not religious, matter. In modern day Britain there is no place for such things as Burkhas that inhibit integration.

It is of course a religious matter, as the very English converts on this thread will no doubt say shortly.

Cote, I've said the extent of the covering is debated, at no point havbe I ever said one thing is correct and another incorrect, the extent to which you cover or not is completely between you and your creator, nothing to do with me or my knowledge or lack thereof.

You clearly have your own strongly held views, I don't dispute them, I do think tho that unless one is a scholar one should refrain from condemning a Muslim from practicing their faith.

No, no evidence that it's religious. People choose it, especially in this country, to shout out that they are religious but it is a cultural invention. It is divisive and segregating. How many people would approach a woman wearing a burkha to have a chat? That shield basically says non muslims, fuck off.

"the instructions in the Quran are to cover with the outer clothing, the extent of covering is debated amongst scholars."

How many of these scholars are women?

Slug, you'd be surprised, I used to be related to one I'm friends with one as well.
I was taught by one, and I have a neighbour who is a female scholar.

Female scholars are approached all the time for rulings and problem solving, I think the Islamich shariah council has a female scholar too.

MY ex sister in law, teacher and neighbour all cover completely, my friend observes hijab, and I have no idea about the lady at the shariah council.

I want to study up to it as well.

fuzzy - Don't sidestep the issue.

You said Quran can be interpreted as telling women to cover their entire faces, like in a veil or a burqa. Then you insinuated that those of us who don't read it in its Arabic original are missing the real meaning.

Which is where I asked you to explain to us, assuming you do read Arabic, HOW the Sura Nur can POSSIBLY be interpreted as to mean "cover your entire faces".

And I ask it again now. If you can't answer, I assume you realize that such an interpretation is quite impossible rationally, and can only be evidence of a very active imagination.

How many women that cover completely have non muslim friends?

posie - It is a religious issue because Muslim women who cover themselves say it is.

What you want to say is that Quran doesn't say to cover their faces, and I agree with you on that.

Cote, if you're reading an interpretation of the Quran you're reading someone else's interpretation of the meaning of what is written. I dunno, you're multi-lingual right (I think), have you ever read a beautiful poem in your language only to read an english translation and it has lost it's meaning the nuance, altho you get what its about it's not the same?

The Quran instructs for women to cover their beauty, draw their outer cloaks to cover their torso and jewlery... now interpret that as you will.

I think it's two or three schools of thought interpret it as covering everything hence the niqab, and two rule that leaving the face and hands and feet exposed is fine.

Btw, I'm not claiming to be a Quranic expert or a scholar. I'm asking that we dont condemn eachothers decisions to dress how we feel is correct.
I've had people (I do not know form Adam) come up to me and tell me they have a mozlem friend who doesn't wear a hijab, so I'm just showing off, or actually I got up i nthe morning and decided on my clothing to specifically irritate that one person whom I had never seen before ever

It's extremely funny to find a femininst thread full of a load of women debating the extent to which ridiculous clothing rules which are hardly if at all in the Koran and are imposed by men (and in some countries ordained by law without choice for the woman).

The reason we can condemn women who take the wrong interpretation is because the result of that stance is that they will find it harder to bef eminists. It is definitely harder to become british prime minster and wear the Burka. You'd trip up as you ran around, you couldn't easily play tennis with other world leaders in one etc etc. which illustrates how ridiculous the clothing rules are. They aren't even islamic in my view. It is very very much a feminist issue as is walking behind a man and needing the views of 2 women to count as one man in court. The Koran was trying to improve in its time and its day the rights of women, of everyone. Jesus was too - all equal, prostitute and non-prostitute, rich or poor, male or female. But men of the day subverted the word of God. All good women know this and all major religions have feminist movements within them and God if she/he exists is very much behind their cause.