So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

Xenia- I honestly do not think you or any western non muslim woman, no matter how much she has travelled to the middle east (and I have quite a bit, so i am not completely clueless) is in a position to judge how much discomfort wearing a headscarf really brings after a few days of trying to get it right. Western women look ridiculous even in the most gorgeous of attires, a silk saree, because we have no idea how to tie it properly. BTW, Wearing high heels is also supremely uncomfortable, and also not religiously required.

I once saw a girl in the bus with her mobile phone snugly stuck to her ear and held in place by her head-scarf- so she could effectively talk hands free. Pure genius

Oh and many african traditional dresses also require elaborate headdresses which look impossible to get right and hold in place and yet look unbelievably gorgeous (as my 4yo dd, who once stopped two nigerian ladies in the street to ask them in complete awe if they were princesses, can testify).

Riven, not sure if it's just your choice of words, but I do not think it's a helpful way to put things- surely we should concentrate on reducing inequalities among all segments of society, including muslim? The fact that not all women are discriminated against doesn't mean there aren't many who are. Just as in the rest of society at large.

Xenia there are a million and one ways to wear a head scarf and pin it, I can comfortably wear a headscarf without it slipping for pretty long periods of time, I also choose what material to wear during winter and summer months, and I wrap my headscarf differently depending on the climate!

You don't feel omcfortable in a headscarf fair enough, I'm used to it, I mean I guess women with long hair possibly find it hot and saticky in summer in comparison to women who choose to wear their hair short, or go completely bald....but hey to each their own right?

I wasn't given choice in Iran so it wasn't each to their own, was it and what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?

It was very thin. It was still very hot.

It was thin but I couldn't hear so well.

It cuts off your side vision. How can it not? That's very curtailing. It may be that it's like someone has spent their life in a wheel chair or they've been blind since birth so they don't understand how much it is limiting them but it does limit. british women of a certain kind used to wear headscarves. I can remember a few of my mother's friends as a child. But I stand by the fact they are limiting and have an effect and make a difference between you and a man. How can something covering the ear not stop the hearing in business meetings? It's like putting part of an ear plug over the ear. Given the religion doesn't demand it it seems a ridiculous thing to do to yourself, not to be able to see so well, be hot and not be able to hear quite so well.

"what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?"

My best friend's daughter goes to a school with a very high proportion of muslim children; many many girls in her class wear a head scarf. She would love nothing more than to wear one, too.

May I add that in hot countries most people, men and women, wear some form of head covering to protect themselves from the sun.

I understand what you're saying wrt to it being an obligation for all women of all faiths- that's wrong. Just as wrong as banning all women of all faiths from wearing one.

Well I got paid and I've children to feed. My principles aren't that deep and anyway it was a good chance to show British women and everyone was really nice to me.

It's blinkers like people put on horses to stop them moving to the side.

The issues over Turkey on this are interesting and there it was indeed very liberating when there was whatever ban they have on it in universities. That did work rather well in ensuring a more secular and free society but that was coming from a different history from here.

Anyway I think the conclusion of most people was the British will and ought not to ban particular clothing but we are all lucky to be free to point out the sexism in most major religions and indeed within many marriages of aethists in the UK.

How did you wear a headscarf in order for it to blinker you?

My headscarf has never ever impeded my vision, you must tie yours in a rather interestng manner!

My girls wear headscarves, they fight over my headscarves and play dress up in them, it's got so bad I've bought them their own and asked them to leave mine alone!

I much prefer having a cotton head covering to having direct sunlight on my head.

Next time you have to go somewhere where you have to wear a headscarf, try a one piece ameera head scarf in cotton material, you just pull it over your head and don't have to faff around with pins it tends to stay put as well, unless you have a hair cut which sticks up.

"Anyway I think the conclusion of most people was the British will and ought not to ban particular clothing but we are all lucky to be free to point out the sexism in most major religions and indeed within many marriages of aethists in the UK."

I am not 100% sure I understand this passage, some punctuation would help , but I think I fully agree

"what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?"

DD is now 11 goes to a school where she is the only muslim girl. She decided when she was 8 to wear a scarf (she sometimes does not wear it) and certainly not through my example as I was not wearing one until 6 month ago.

Almost all religion oppresses women and this is particularly true of the abrahamic faiths.

Feminism however, is about choice. REAL choice.

Some people on here need to accept that many women may make choices that do not fit with the ideals of white, heterosexual, CofE, middle class women though.

'There is argument even about whether it's even required'

no, there isn't. no scholar will say a headscarf isn't required.

The early muslim women used to cover their faces. don't know if all of them did though. when the verses about covering were revealed. they did start covering fully.

here is some evidence

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282

Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha):
"Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces''

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized .

so its not just a cultural thing, covering the face or wearing burqa is a religious thing too and extremely important for many women.

Excellent post Amber.

I would go further and say that most cultures oppress women. For example, I live in Switzerland (the country that recently banned the construction of minarets ). Women are discriminated in a million subtle little ways- from the absence of maternity pay, to schools closing at lunchtime, to ridiculous bylaws such as not being able to mow your lawn or use the washing machine in the evenings or at weekends.

Yet on the surface of things- atheist and highly modern society. Not a headscarf in sight (unless it's Hermes, of course)

Asalaamu Alaikum Riven, what sort of scholars are they? from some sect? just asking out of interest.

All the Pakistani sisters I meet in the mosque do wear a headscarf. I do not know any Bengladeshi sister (yet).

Hurrah - the thread moved on from Islam bashing to intelligent discussion!

"Feminism however, is about choice. REAL choice.

Some people on here need to accept that many women may make choices that do not fit with the ideals of white, heterosexual, CofE, middle class women though."

Thanks for that Amber. I get cross that the thinking seems to be if you don't be behave in a certain way. i.e. in a manner decided on your behalf by other women - "proper feminists", that you are anti-feminist and are somehow letting the side down....