So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

No purits, my solution is not to pander to anyone, I think the argument that imposing a ban on burkhas would seriously curtail the lives of the women who are being forced to wear these garments is very valid.
Some women are made to cover, but imposing a ban on the clothing is not going to stop that attitude. IT's going ot seriosuly prevent young girls enjoying the freedom of education and employment which eventually provides a means for these girls to escape...

It will also seriously curtail the lives of women who voluntarily wear the veil.

Countries which ban the veil have seen women having to drop out of university because of it, because you know some women will most definitely choose the veil.

I find it very interesting that its mainly women who are most voiciferously against another woman covering, personally I really do not care what people wear, so long as I'm not required to wear it myself unless I choose to.

Chains and collars are worn by men and women, and they choose the wear them as a fashion item. They are not associated with religion, and most punks outgrow that phase eventually!

ooooh Riven, I recently read a 'fatwa' banning women from wearing high heels...apparently it exposes us to the risk of death, we're all bound to trip over and break our necks and die!!!!! Apparently.

Not really on topic but I have always wondered what women in Burka's do at passport control? I have this mental image of millions of identical passport pictures of a pair of eyes peering through slits!

Personally, I find them disturbing. And the eyes peering out never look very happy.

I'd better go - DH is giving me pointed looks about being on MN after my nagging suggesting that we both work on the jungle that is our garden!

There are rulings as to what a man can wear tho, trousers hitched above the ankles, loose fitting clothes same as for women, no silk no gold, they are to keep their hair short and beards long, but their moustaches short....

I am not sure what you choose to wear, Riven. In this country you can choose, which is great news for everyone. In parts of the Middle East you can't, if you do choose anything but a full burkha, you will bear unpleasant consequences - where the opposite sex believe that Western dress is an invitation to flashing, being arrested and worse. Hurrah for the freedom of the West!!! For many Western women, these hard won freedoms are something to celebrate. We find it sad and worrying that women who are free to choose, cling to the fabric of oppression.

"I hate it when men twist and use a religion to enforce male rules. While I believe they will answer to God one day, I'd also like it to change now. But how?"

I have just looked up mosques on Wikipedia. It says "All Muslim authorities hold the consensus opinion that only men may lead prayer for men. Nevertheless women prayer leaders are allowed to lead prayer in front of all-female congregations."
So islam is inherently sexist; it is all about men being in control. You keep pretending that it is men's interpretation of islam that is the problem, not the religion itself.
Either (a) islam is sexist and you are deluding yourself about your "choice" or (b) the religion is not sexist but men have debased it- in which case it's about time that some muslims started a new denomination and got back to the non-sexist, non-oppressive truth.
The "but how?" seems blindingly obvious.

"there are now women leading mixed prayers in New York City in progressive mosques"

I'm glad to hear it. When is it happening in your mosque?

That's the great thing about Opus Dei -- both males and females can join the self mortification.

In Iran I was put through female passport etc control where the queue was about a fifth that of the male queues and there were only women in there but it's still sexist segregation. I would rather have the queues.

We are allowed in the UK to discuss these issues. Sadly that is not the case everywhere. We are also free to say that it's pretty hard to cycle down the street in the these types of clothes or see. I found the loss of side vision appallingly restrictive when I was abroad although I wasn't in a burka. It limits you and people are silly to dress like that and just as people can say women shouldn't wear high heels because they might fall or whatever so we can criticise Islamic dress.

Plenty of Muslims are not into that type of clothing. Women's bodies are wonderful and should be shown off. God created them in his or her image and to cover them up probably causes him or her much mirth.

purits, women can lead congregational prayer under certain conditions. I have no problem with it personally, as the person leading the congregation is the one who has learnt the most of the Quran by heart.
I've lead congregational prayer, I am not upset that men lead congregational prayers. The enunciation the style of recitation is very important in congregational prayer, and I'm not the best at it by a long chalk....

I do not find it sexist, there are different rules and laws for men and women in Islam.

I think it's sufficient that my religion is not yours, and my beliefs are not your beliefs. I can easily respect the diffence.

This is a the way these arguments go, 'Islam opresses women because there are women amongst you who cover your faces', whiuch then goes to Islam is sexist becuase women cannot lead in prayer, to you're all suicide bombers and really you should all be killed right off..... [hmmm]

"I think people are so used to seeing women oppressed it becomes nothing out of the ordinary. It's only when another group would be singled out for the same treatment that you realise the problem. "

I agree with this. Mind you, I think the burqa (actually I've never seen a woman wearing a burqa, and don't often see women wearing a niqab, and I live in the middle of London) freaks (some) people out because it is such an obvious symbol of oppression, whereas we think nothing of seeing women attempting to walk walking about in five-inch heels held on with the merest whisp of a strap.

I have only skimmed read this thread so probably everything I am going to say has already been said, and better, but, fwiw...

there is a huge difference between an afghan style burqa and a head scarf- and as far as i can tell from my observation of women in London there are about 100 different gradations in between. I have only ever seen a handful of women with complete covering in the West (including gloves, and in a handful occasion, a sort of metallic face mask which i believe is saudi or yemeni custom? someone will know better!).

As far as I can tell, wearing a headscarf and/or modest clothing is a religious/cultural thing for the majority of Muslim women. I used to live in Kilburn where there is a huge Somali and middle eastern population. my gp wore a heascarf and an overcoat; the lovely nurse at the contraception clinic wore a headscarf and conservative clothing; and lots and lots of girls and women (including at work) wore the heascarf- sometimes coupled with traditional clothing, other times with jeans or office wear.

I mention these examples not because i find it so exceptional that a muslim woman can be a doctor (before someone comes out and accuses me of that!) but because i simply do not believe the simplistic equation islamic clothing= women oppression. That's just ignorant white men talking, as far as I am concerned. Of course there is oppression and ignorance etc in certain segments of society, but then address the causes of it, rather than a superficial way to visually "integrate" people.

It is however a way to "wear your faith", and as such I can see that it grates on our increasingly atheist society. We just do not like to be confronted with religion, either spiritual or cultural, because we don't understnd it anymore, and therefore we are scared of it.

covering your head is not exclusive to muslim women: orthodox jewish women do it too, and until recently it was commonplace in catholicism too- nuns still do it.

The burqa, on the other hand, is harder for me to accept. I think at that point you do enter the realms of diminishing women and it saddens me and shocks me that it is considered necessary in certain cultures.

sorry- very rambly post and largely uninformed that adds nothing to the debate, but i couldn't resist possibly

But even the headscarf gets in the way and when I got on the plane from Iran everyone except one lady (and 90% were Iranian not English as I am) took them off, immediately. That doesn't exactly show how much they love it, does it? They are hot around your ears, you cannot hear properly, they come on and off and have to be fiddled with and they are religiously not required. Plenty of Muslim women in the UK and abroad don't cover their heads. There is argument even about whether it's even required.