So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

I seem to remember some scholar (no name from me either, sorry) who after 9/11 said that if women feard to be picked on/abused because they were wearing a headscarf they could abstain but I do not think it was meant to be forever IYSWIM.

Riven, most of the Bangali sisters I know wear headscarves, there are some sisters amongst us from various nationalities who don't, none of us judge it's our own decision really.

I'm very wary of the blnaket fatwas that certain 'scholars' issue, I've heard the bizarrest rulings and the high heels ban was one of the more normal ones!! I tend to only accept rulings which I can find backed up with hadith and Quran, otherwise I seek a second opinion.

Only the rich like the wives of the Prophet wore a scarf. you can't do manual work properly and work in feels in silly head coverings. It is not an Islamic requirement. Plenty of Muslims would agree with me but as I said above I wouldn't ban it. Loads of Muslims come to the UK because we are tolerant of difference and always have been as a nation which is more than can be said for some foreign states. The planet is full of Muslim women who don't cover their head at all. They can be very good muslims.

But as for what feminism means - it's principal starting point is equal rights under the law of the state. Allowing women to vote, to own property, to become surgeons, to work, to own money, have their own bank accounts.

Many forms of organised religions have a long and ignoble history of oppressing/abusing women and children. And many followers of those religions are conditioned to accept oppressive practices.

But the state can't go around banning people from wearing their religious uniforms. Or at least only if that same state is prepared, for example, to ban the wearing of preposterously high heels (dangerous, disabling and the product of another form of conditioning)

Xenia, ermmm the Prophet of Islam was not rich....hahaha about him being rich, when he died he left behind nothing of material wealth, the meagre effects he owned were considered charity, his wives and children were not able to make material claims due to being his relatives.

All the wives, the children, and the Prophet (pbuh) worked with their hands and did their own work, the only one of his wives who was wealthy was wealthy thro her own business ventures and not financially reliant on the Prophet (pbuh).
There is a very famous story of the Pophet's favourite daughter, she sent her husband to her father to ask for a slave to help her with the household chores, as she had to work so hard she had developed painful calouses, instead her father came to her and taught her a prayer to give her courage and strength, and he instructed her with patience, and told her that the wealth of this world was not for them (himself included).......

The women at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) looked to his wives for religious guidance and advice, and would have emulated their dress and followed their advice on matters or gone to the Prophet directly for advice or rulings.

The Prophet (pbuh) died without a penny to his name his bowl and his clothing would have bewen given away in charity. During his life time he used to help with the household chores and mend his own clothing himself, altho I bet there would not have been a single person around him who would have refused to do these for him.

Rivenan abaya and niqab or a burqa is not movement restricting like a kimono. A burqa does restrict vision though and I'd never wear one but there's almost nothing an abaya/niqab combo stops a woman doing.

Yes, I was specifically referring to the burqua, not other muslim headsarves and veils (sorry, I don't know what they're all called). Just the burqua I don't like. But as you said, if the burqua happened to come from a culture where women held a lot of power and rights, more than our culture, it would be regarded as a symbol of liberation; but because it comes from a country that's in a complete mess, particularly in regard to women's rights, we associate it with oppression.

"I found a beige Burka on amazone! I thought they just sold books! "
ROFL.
Tickled me that did.

Xenia "Mind you you'd think the one thing I'd get in iran would be femininst covering up and no photos and just there for my brains but I was beamed in my awful looking clothes stuff all round on massive TVs round the rooms and hundreds of photos were taken after but huge fun".
That sounds fab. I'd love to go somewhere like that.

Back on topic, I guess the reason the Iranian women take off their headscarves on the plane is because Iran is one of the countries where women actually are forced to wear it, as religious dogma. So I guess if you're forced to do something you'd almost instinctively react negatively to it. I should imagine its the same for women in countries where the headscarf (sorry, must learn proper names for them all) is viewed negatively; the women would actively insist on wearing it as a reactionary act of rebellion like the teenagers you mentioned. I suppose that leads us to the question of whether we should meddle in what women do or do not wear.

Sorry, did my comment about going to Iran sound ironic? It wasn't. I'd love to visit the middle east, and to go on business must have been paticularly fascinating.

Xenia, Where did you find the info that the Prophet (PBUH) was rich?

Since writing I don't like the burqa on the grounds that it's restricting I realise I have to admit that high-heeled shoes probably are far more restricting. I wore high-heels a lot as a teenager and now I've done my back in because of it. There's a discussion on another thread about how very little girls can be seen wearing slip-on shoes, some with heels(!) at the park, so they can't run around like the boys. Am I right in thinking that the Islamic coverings are only required after the girl hits puberty?

Molesworth, I am inclined to agree with your point about a liberal view (right to wear what you like) V a feminist view (right not to be subjected to and judged by the male gaze, and for the core issue to be addressed.) It's a difficult one, though, because as Riven says, we have to sort out the male gaze before we ask women to take off their coverings, and we are a long way off from achieving a society where women are not judged by their looks or objectified.

I didn't say he was rich. But covering was something done by richer women in a similar way perhaps that high heels have often been or expensive clothes you couldn't get on your knees to scrub floors in.

Footbinding for rich Chinese women was the same. Rich men like to curb women. Poor men have no choices although they would probably like to.

(Wikipedia)
"Alternative views

Other Muslims take a relativist approach to ħijāb. They believe that the commandment to maintain modesty must be interpreted with regard to the surrounding society. What is considered modest or daring in one society may not be considered so in another. It is important, they say, for believers to wear clothing that communicates modesty and reserve in the situations in which they find themselves.[7]

Along with scriptural arguments, Leila Ahmed argues that head covering should not be compulsory in Islam because the veil predates the revelation of the Qur'an. Head-covering was introduced into Arabia long before Muhammad, primarily through Arab contacts with Syria and Iran, where the hijab was a sign of social status. After all, only a woman who need not work in the fields could afford to remain secluded and veiled.[8][9]

Leila Ahmed argues for a more liberal approach to hijab. Among her arguments is that while some Qur'anic verses enjoin women in general to Qur'an 33:58?59. ?draw their Jilbabs (overgarment or cloak) around them to be recognized as believers and so that no harm will come to them.? and Qur'an 24:31. ?guard their private parts... and drape down khimar over their breasts [when in the presence of unrelated men]?, they urge modesty but do not mention the word hijab or the covering of the head, neck, etc.

However according to the vast majority of Muslims Sunni and Shia, al-Mawrid al-Qawrid Arabic dictionary, Hans-Wehr Dictionary of Arabic into English, and the exhaustive ancient Arabic dictionary "Lisan al-arab", (literally the tongue of the arabs) the word 'Khimar' means and was used to refer to a piece of cloth that covers the head, or headscarf today called 'hijab'.

Other verses do mention separation of men and women but they refer specifically to the wives of the prophet:

Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignoranceQur'an 33:32?33)

And when ye ask of them [the wives of the Prophet] anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain.(Qur'an 33:53)

According to Leila Ahmed, nowhere in the whole of the Qur'an is the term hijab applied to any woman other than the wives of Muhammad.[8][10]

According to at least two authors, (Reza Aslam and Leila Ahmed) the stipulations of the hijab were originally meant only for Muhammad's wives, and were intended to maintain their inviolability. This was because Muhammad conducted all religious and civic affairs in the mosque adjacent to his home:

People were constantly coming in and out of this compound at all hours of the day. When delegations from other tribes come to speak with Muhammad, they would set up their tents for days at a time inside the open courtyard, just a few feet away from the apartments in which Muhammad's wives slept. And new emigrants who arrived in Yatrib would often stay within the mosque's walls until they could find suitable homes.[8]

According to Ahmed:

By instituting seclusion Muhammad was creating a distance between his wives and this thronging community on their doorstep.[11]

They argue that the term darabat al-hijab ("taking the veil"), was used synonymously and interchangeably with "becoming Muhammad's wife", and that during Muhammad's life, no other Muslim woman wore the hijab. Aslam suggests that Muslim women started to wear the hijab to emulate Muhammad's wives, who are revered as "Mothers of the Believers" in Islam,[8] and states "there was no tradition of veiling until around 627 C.E." in the Muslim community.[8][11"

Xenia, have you ever seen a manual worker in a hot climate (anywhere in the world, from India to Mexico to Southern Europe to Africa)? they all, men and women, cover their heads to protect from the sun, the dirt, and the heat.

You'd have to be insane not to cover your head if you're going to spend a day in the fields in a 40 degrees heat. So your argument that headscarfs only work for rich women is, frankly, absurd.

we can debate this on a religious and cultural level but to claim a simple headscarf is restrictive to a woman's capacity to work simply because you found it annoying for a few days is simply, absurd, and dismisses the many millions of women all over the world who work every day in all sorts of professions, from lawyers to labourers to mothers, in traditional clothing of all sorts.

To quote you "But as for what feminism means - it's principal starting point is equal rights under the law of the state. Allowing women to vote, to own property, to become surgeons, to work, to own money, have their own bank accounts.". well, exactly. what they wear has absolutely nothing to do with any of the things you describe.

Women clothing was a huge issue for the women femininsts in the late 1800s here in the UK though because they couldn't ride bikes in skirts and corsets meant they couldn't breath properly etc etc. So it's silly to suggest that clothing doesn't impair women compared to men. It is easier to go jogging as a man than a woman in many places and the issue of the burka as liberating or tying is certainly one many people like to debate. It is very very restrictive and holds women back. I know one arab women who refused to have the signing of the big deal she'd been responsible for in Saudai and everyone had to fly to Zurich instead because she was just not prepared to show tolerance of compulsory dress there. It is a travesty it's being imposed. It is clothing for hot countries as you say or else for medieval times - hood and wimple, class nun's outfit etfc. It is ridiculous to wear it in 2010 and it screams out to others oppression and here standeth a woman who is less likely to run a plc than scrub her husband's shirts but I would love to be proved wrong - to see that more women who cover in the UK are in leading work positions than are housewives.

I wear hijab and abaya and hey I'm an Accountant I hold down a good job and errr my dress does not impair my ability to do my job amazingly well, I'm the manager of my division!!!

My closest hijab wearing friends are as follows;

An ex solicitor, she re-trained as a teacher (found law soul destroying)

Solicitor

Doctor, she's a peadiatrician

Computer analyst programmer (she's big in her company, very well respected)

Engineer, she's pretty amazing, she climbs around building sites in her hijab and hard hat and steel capped boots!!! A complete contradiction to the poor oppressed little Mozlem the western media has us portrayed as.

I have more but it gets repetitive with doctors, surgeons and various lawyers. In fact I'm prolly the least accomplished amongst all my friends.

Hijab is in the Quran, I'll post up the verses and the backing hadith in a bit.

BTW I do beg your pardon Xenia, I assumed when you said "Only the rich like the wives of the Prophet wore a scarf."
You meant that in your opinion the Prophet of Islam and his family were rich....because that is exactly what that sentance says.

"to see that more women who cover in the UK are in leading work positions than are housewives."

Oh, because women who don't cover are? Give me a break.

Yes, agree, a full burqa- not so comfortable, and highly objectionable. But a headscarf and modest clothing? I don't know, perhaps i am not that great a feminist, but i don't see it as such a big deal. I like to look at the woman who wears the veil, not the veil itself, and not make assumptions about what that says about her.

Also in the middle east the male Thobe is pretty much exactly the same as a womans abaya but less chic!

I don't think it's religiously needed to cover your head at all as I said above and people take different views. It is obviously more constricting than not covering your head and is an extra thing to think about. Might be better for feminism if you just changed things round so that men had to cover their head and/or wear the burka and they do that for the next 2000 years just to even things out. I don't think God requires it, any God.

There are plenty of Muslim women in London in professional jobs who don't cover their heads.

Feminism would want more women able to work in all kinds of careers and the full burka is ridiculous.

The feminist issue is very interesting. It's like being behind a computer screen - no one knows if you're pretty, sexy, thin, flirtatious or 30 stone, ugly, a different sex from what you say etc and so is covering up or indeed putting on the dungarees and chopping off the hair hence why burka wearing etc is often used in feminist discussions.

I do find it a little prenicious though that in countries with the head scarf the women trowel on so much make up. If you're going to say let's be feminist and cover up and not be play things of men there for their entertainment then surely religiously you should lay off all the make up? I think I look pretty good without it and I don't trade on my looks enough to worry about always wearing it but I made a piont of not wearing it when I was in Iran on business. If I'm giong to have the benefits of being covered upo and it not mattering I'm 32DD or wear high heels or whatever then I'm certainly not going to play the game of who can win in the make up stakes.

Well Xenia, that is your opinion as a non muslim, and a person who prolly has not studied the Quran past reading other peoples opinions on the issue, other poeples opinions which fit in with your views on the matter of hijab.

I do agree about the caking on of make-up tho, I found it utterly fascinating when I was in the middle east, the girls are adept at eye make up, it does defeat the purpose of hijab, but hey that's their decision.

I think the hijab is very different to covering the entire body and face. About 50% of my female students wear the hijab, and I don't make the assumption that they are all wearing it because they are feminists or because they are devout or wish to appear modest, although no doubt some of them are both of these things. I also don't assume that students who are not wearing the hijab are less devout.

To some people it is just part of their style, and the hijab can be very beautiful and IMO frames and draws attention to the face in a way that hair cannot. I suspect than in areas where people become more integrated, women who are not Muslim will start wearing the hijab in the future simply because it often looks good.

The meaning of clothes changes over time and although clothing may carry a meaning to the wearer, that isn't always known to other people.

I wear a hijab, I do not wear an abaya or a niqab. I wear western clothing which I believe are modest. The reason I wear the hijab is because I have learnt that you are to cover your hair, and its good for me because my hair is a nightmare (frizzball)

I do not wear a abaya because I have been taught to wear modest clothing, you don't need to wear a abaya, burqa or niqab. I would love to wear the abaya because it is simple and easy and fuss-free, I don't need to think about matching my clothes, or if my top is too big/small etc. I don't wear it because I know that people will treat me differently because of it.

IMO the oppression stems from culture and not the religion. In my culture (im Bengali) parents and husbands do force their daughters and wives to wear burqa and niqab. I do not believe this is right, IT IS WRONG.

People need to be educated on what is right/wrong, they don't know. I know that many Bengalis read the Quran every day, my mother does, but she does not understand it. She just reads it. I have also been taught to read Arabic, but I do not understand it, this why I read the English translation.

There is a lot wrong with our culture, but slowly it is changing. About 20 years ago girls were forced in to marriages but this has now changed. Girls are no longer forced into marriages, although there are some cases that I hear. I talking about the Bengali culture and not Islam.

And I think Riven is right, banning the burqa will not free women on the other hand people who are forced to wear it will not be allowed to go out, study or work.