So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

[Portoeufino]

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

dittany brought this up. She objects to Islam as a patriachal religion. I don't condone paedophilia one little bit, but that is not what we are discussing here.

That's a very different topic. My church says 14 for girls or older if the law of the country you're in says so. I think that's absolutely fine.

I don't think we should ban the covering up here but people should realise how ridiculous and sexist it is and they will and do and gradually it will go so I'm not too bothered about it. In our local schools where girls are not allowed to cover up in I am not sure which ways plenty of them are absolutely delighted that is so as they have an excuse against controlling other family members who are not so westernised and it's pretty hot and uncomfortable and you cannot take part in things etc. It's ridiculous garb as we all know including loads of British muslims who would not dream of subjecting their daughters to that. But I still wouldn't ban it.

dittany, I am not singling you out. But you have come on to the thread for a bit of Muslim bashing. You are pushing for us all to agree that Muslims are bad because they are all paedophiles, and if we don't agree then we are condoning their behaviour.

Sorry. This is not what this is about. I am interested to know about what muslim women feel about the clothing they wear or don't wear. Why they do, or don't. I have my personal views on religion, and feel that everyone else is fully entitled to theirs too.

Who on here has used Islam a defense of child abuse?

eh, not ONE of those comments relates to child abuse. Well maybe the comments about 12/13 yos IN THE UK having babies, where I remember the comment was that unfortunately THEY might have subject to abuse. That is sad, but it was talking about Western children......

Portofino, I think your thread invites a critique of Islam. This is a feminist topic and so you are asking feminists to say whether or not they think that wearing the burka is oppressive. There can only really be a range of ways of looking at that.

Does it restrict what women can physically do?
Does it restrict women's ability to express themselves?
Does it have an impact on women's health?
Is it symbolic of oppression due to its links with laws in other countries?
Is it symbolic of oppression because it is connected to religious beliefs about gender inequality?

Well, the answer to the first three is yes, but it would also be yes if we were talking about certain western clothes. So the area of debate has to be about its symbolic meaning, and that neccessarily involves talking about the extent to which Islam is oppressive to women in Western societies. We also have to ask who this primarily has an impact on - the women who wear it? Muslim women who don't wear it? Non-Muslim women? Women who are from communities that are predominantly Islamic but who themselves are not Muslim?

I don't think you can address this topic without discussing the range of attitudes to women in Islam.

I don't personally think that it should be banned, but then I am not in a position to make that judgement, because I haven't been raised in a Muslim culture and so I have no idea what is involved in making the decision to wear or not wear certain items of religious clothing.

i apologise for going off topic many times, i've got a bad habit of that!

Again, this thread is not about child abuse. If you believe that Muslims force their pubescent children to have sex start your own thread!

Can anyone answer a genuine question I have about very young girls (4-5) in headscarves. Why would they need to wear them and cover in modesty if they were pre-pubescent?

I live in NW London. I see women in burkhas fairly frequently, at least once a week. I saw one today in the Science Museum. I am not remotely interested in whether they are to do with religion or not - to me, a burkha says 'fuck off, I don't want to talk to you' so I don't bother.

That is a good question MrsP. I don't see that here. School aged dcs never wear headscarves.

Dittany - all I said is start your own thread!

young girls don't need to wear headscarves but some parents feel like they should get their children used to it before they reach puberty. Some children just wear it going to mosque, some wear it like part of their uniform.

i know people will find it strange but my daughter whose 3, she thinks its normal to be out in a scarf because she has never seen me outside without one.

when i put my my scarf on, they always say 'are we going out?'

young girls don't need to wear headscarves but some parents feel like they should get their children used to it before they reach puberty. Some children just wear it going to mosque, some wear it like part of their uniform.

i know people will find it strange but my daughter whose 3, she thinks its normal to be out in a scarf because she has never seen me outside without one.

when i put my my scarf on, they always say 'are we going out?'

Hopefully someone will answer soon, I see many many young girls covered in this way where I live and am always v curious as to what the actual reasoning is behind it. I don't know any Muslims well so don't feel comfortable asking.

MillyR, I didn't mean the thread to be a critique of Islam, though it seems to have turned out that way .

I was more interested in the view that the govt is convinced it is doing the RIGHT thing by banning certain things and that I wanted to understand more about it from a female perspective.

Just to add to my post - I would never support banning any kind of clothing that someone chooses to wear in their personal life BUT having said that I suppose it goes along with banning hoodies. I still don't like it. Freedom of choice should rule and if you don't want to engage with the world then that's your prerogative. I do think it's really sad though

MrsPixie, not all Muslim girls wear the headscarf because of modesty or religion - some just wear it as a fashion accessory or to generally look nice.

dittany - please go away and hide this thread. You are bringing all you anti-male, anti-religion stuff into a place that it does not belong. I want to LEARN about people's views not be bombarded with the insistance that all men are perverts.