Taskmaster: if you don’t use ‘correct’ pronouns you’re a philistine…

[Sugarleaf]

…Who’s stuck in the past. To be ‘cool and curious’ you need to use non- biological sex based pronouns. And this is about a ‘certain generation.’ I mean I’m 32 and think it’s bollocks.

plus, as a bonus, ‘if you don’t like me, fine, as long as you use my correct pronouns.’

ffs

Chloe's quote states:

"you can say you don't like me as long as you're using correct pronouns"

And that it "feels nice to feel" to have her pronouns respected.

Neither one of these indicates a change in belief. Rather they are about respecting the right to identity.

A lot of people think royal & aristocratic titles are made up out of date clap trap but would probably still address those individuals that way out of respect.

As has been explained to you many times before, appropriating other people's reality as a metaphor for ones own identity is not a "right", it is an offensive negation of other people's right to their own identities, their own self knowledge and their connection to their own history.

So it is about taking us back to more deferential times.

As has been explained to you many times before, sex is not gender.

I wonder if gendered care about the consequences of concealing sex for safeguarding?

Or is the respect they demand the only thing that matters?

So can you explain why people who have claimed to “change gender” demand access to spaces designated for the opposite sex?

No its an example of respecting another's right to their preferences however invalid we may find them. Other examples would be using 'dr' for social scientists or 'madam' 'sir' 'Ms' instead of 'Mrs'…none of which confer any authority.

This thread is about pronouns so maybe start another thread that's relevant to that.

Someone may have a right to à”preference”. I also have the right to ignore their preference….

Two different concepts. Maybe start another thread.

No, you stated something, I asked for clarification….

I used to know a woman who was a radical feminist lesbian. She was in a feminist punk band and her entire identity was based around this.

She is now apparently on Grindr. The hookup sex app for gay men.

Sure, just like someone has a right to exclude you in a social setting for being anti social.

But at work, it depends. Deliberately misgendering can be considered a form of harassment.

Indeed sex is not gender. I entirely agree.

This is why using words that have always meant sex to label this totally unconnected thing "gender" is causing so many problems.

It is true that in some parts of society, "Man" and "Woman" have reecently been partially appropriated to label personal feelings of "gender", but this is by no means at all a generally accepted meaning, and certainly does not apply to the great many pre-existing things that were labelled as "man" or "woman" using the original sex-based meanings way before the phrase "gender identity" was coined - for example single sex spaces like bogs, changing rooms and prisons, the politcal movement of Feminism, the history of female people, and women's sports, to name but a few examples.

Clearly, this new and very niche use of "man" and "woman" to label the inchoate concept of "gender" is an unhelpful and misleading, not to mention sexist, development.

In a rational world we should all, Genderists and Feminists alike, be agreeing a much better approach for all concerned is to coin new terminology entirely separate from "man" and "woman", and indeed from any originally sex-based language, to label this thing Gender that, whether or not we happn to agree is a good thing in its own right, we do all agree is different to sex.

Because as I said, appropriating other people's reality as a metaphor for ones own identity is not a "right", it is an offensive negation of other people's right to their own identities, their own self knowledge and their connection to their own history.

And the 'something' was?

So why do men who pretend to be women want to be referred to as "she"?

Sex isn't gender.

A man with a gender identity is still a "he".

The million dollar question no TRA of any sex or gender has the balls to answer. Because to answer it is to betray 100 times over that these parasitic identities rely on the realities of other people to have meaning.

that sex and gender are different. Many trans allies claim they are the same thing. So are you right or are they right?

Compelling someone to speak using terminology which conflicts with their beliefs could also be considered harassment.

Edited for clarity.

It’s your example of people who believe royal & aristocratic titles are made up out of date clap, ignoring and subsuming their own beliefs due to ‘politeness’. Sounds pretty deferential.

You keep saying this, but I think it would be helpful if you explained what you think the relationship is between sex and gender (if any).

Genderists use sex-based pronouns to denote gender, so sex and gender can't be completely unrelated to each other in genderists' minds.

For example, what is the gender of a man who wants to be a woman? His sex is still male, but what is his gender?

"Trans gender" is a ubiquitous term in modern liberal societies. People might not know the ins & outs of gender but they would know its somebody who doesn't conform to the typical behaviour of their sex & wants to live that way. That they might disagree on how trans people come into being is a moot point because either way they exist.

That you believe people can't tell the difference between the concepts of a natal woman/man & a trans woman/man is severely underestimating human intelligence but perhaps you are speaking for yourself.

That we should agree there should be better terminology shows an ignorance of the most basic mechanism of why gendered terms exist in the first place which is an association to common sexed behaviour. And while common sexed behaviour distinctions exist so to will their associations to them.

Good luck with changing that btw.

Noone is being compelled to "mouth the words". They just can't deliberately misgender in the work place. If they don't want to 'mouth the words" the ycan use the person's name. Much ado about nothing…

People might not know the ins & outs of gender but they would know its somebody who doesn't conform to the typical behaviour of their sex & wants to live that way

A cursory look at trans supportive comments across social media would suggest a significant amount of people believe someone transgender is an unfortunate person who has been ‘born in the wrong body’.

You misunderstand.

Obviously, everyone can tell the difference between female people and the vast majority of those male people who pretend to be female, (and vice versa for those female people who pretend to be male)

But what has pretending to be a different sex got to do with this "gender" thing?

As I said, "gender" certainly does not apply to the great many things that were labelled as "man" or "woman" using the original sex-based meanings way before the phrase "gender identity" was coined - for example single sex spaces like bogs, changing rooms and prisons, the politcal movement of Feminism, the history of female people, and women's sports, to name but a few examples.

So, when you say "woman" now means a type of mixed sex gender identity rather than simply of the female sex, what does this new "gender" of woman have to do with the original use of "woman" to mean female sex? What's the connection here between these two different things that justifes taking the name of one and using it for the other?