Kevin Lister: teacher refused to use wrong sex pronouns, sacked: tribunal appeal

[MyAmpleSheep]

Is anyone following this case? The EAT hearing was yesterday and today.

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/k-lister-vs-new-college-swindon-dbs

Teachers who abuse the in loco parentis power they have over students and refuse to show them respect, deserve to lose their jobs.

That poor kid. When my son was being bullied, it was only the teachers who stood between him and worse violence. I know he would've been raped in school (he was repeatedly sexually assaulted) if teachers hadn't made it clear he was protected by them and should be respected.

With one exception, who always looked directly at him while.intentionally misgendering, aware of the power she wielded. She marked his work, and had the ability to discipline him however she wanted. Her words were intended to humiliate and punish him.

When he told a friendly teacher (who is gay) about this, the Head warned the woman doing it, and she was told to apologise. She did so and afterwards left him alone.

This guy's a total failure of a human being. Imagine putting your own bigoted beliefs before the safety and wellbeing of a child.

Anyone my age (50s) will remember how openly racist, homophobic and misogynist many teachers used to be. Trans kids need protecting from abusive adults too, and anyone sticking up for this creep should be ashamed of themselves.

Are you saying you deny objective facts such as that he told the child she was a burden to the NHS and her parents because you object to the terminology used?

Here we go

Mate, in school he's a maths teacher who needs to respect his professional boundaries and his pupils, not a crusader for GC. If he can't tell the difference or when to be in either mode, he's not fit to be a teacher.

We've come across the 'Bananarama' thing before - it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it [it should be the Bananarama AND Fun Boy Three..].

You have the right to express your WORIADS beliefs, but in a reasonable way - I agree, it would be wrong to walk up to a random trans IDing man in the street and shout at him out of the blue 'You're just a man in a dress!' even though he is just a man in a dress.

We saw in the Sandie Peggie case that there is a problem with this - there was no way, polite or impolite, intemperate or pleasant, that SP could express to DrU that she objected to him being in the women's changing room.
To him, that was inherently offensive.

The same could be said in this case - there was no way that KL could assert his disagreement with joining in the 'social transitioning' of a school student in a way that would not be considered unacceptable.

He may well have overstepped the limits, but the key point is: how does someone in his position assert his WORIAD beliefs without getting sacked?

The tribunal could rule that KL overstepped the limits, but it could still be useful if it ruled that a teacher is entitled to refuse to use wrong sex pronouns, and names other than those by which a student is registered.

Obviously, they should not be offensive in how they express their refusal, but if it was established that they were doing nothing wrong in so doing, teachers wouldn't have to be drawn into confrontations about it.

There's a matter of principle behind this case, not just how the individual handles their assertion of that principle.

Again, it was agreed in the original hearing that the student asked if she was eligible. He was obliged to say yes, or he would be discriminating against her on the basis of gender reassignment. She did in fact choose to enter the contest although she may have later changed her mind and deliberately flunked it.

What he should have done in my opinion is to say yes, anyone born female is eligible, thereby making it impersonal and neutral. Rather than yes because you're a girl, which seems unnecessarily combative.

I agree with others here that on the evidence so far it seems that Lister was inappropriately crossing the line from being allowed to hold his own beliefs into proselytising them.

I could see there being possible defences though, for example he knew enough to know (correctly it turns out) that the policy school were giving him was illegal, and school did not give him training on how to handle such issues in a neutral way. It seems like he was making some efforts to be neutral by not using the student's name or pronouns.

Sounds like that would be a great compromise on both sides.

Funny how a 17 year old is a child, but a 5 year old is old enough to know they were born in the wrong body. Weird that.

Maybe he could have agreed to just say once, to the whole class/college, that he personally doesn't believe that people can change sex, and from then on just use the student's preferred name and pronouns.

If the important thing for him was that everyone knows his beliefs, rather than just a desire to bully a student, why couldn't he have just stated it once instead of repeatedly making his point?

I wonder how many other children in the class appreciated knowing that the adult in the room wasn't buying the genderwang claptrap and took heart from that fact.

Yet @maggisimpson he can only state his view once, but has to constantly capitulate to others and parrot views he doesn’t believe?

Both are children. Hope this helps.

He does not have to pay lip service to something contrary to his beliefs. As per the new guidance nobody does, but a teacher could be asked to avoid using pronouns if a student is uncomfortable with sex based ones. Which is in fact what he was doing.

Normally I'd say he should use the student's chosen nickname, his concern with this seems to have been that he shouldn't do it without confirmation that the parents have agreed and that may not have been forthcoming?

Some of his other comments I agree were inappropriate.

In a more sensible climate, no-one would have been compelled to go along with this, and the student would have been suspended for disrupting the class with her nonsense.

children who are mature and cognitively aware enough to make significant life decisions re medication and surgery at 5… yet at 17 so emotionally fragile if someone doesn’t go along with their
fantasy life they are being bullied?

Not your argument it doesn't, no

That's not actually what it says. There is considerable discretion there if the school and parents agree to it.

So if the parents and school tell you to lie.. “do it”?

I think in this case there was a concern the parents hadn't agreed, and it was being kept secret from them, wasn't there?

Excellent point. Teachers have a responsibility to the whole class, not just to troubled individual pupils.

I don't think that would work in real life - it should go without saying that somebody who is a qualified teacher knows that people can't change sex, why have to announce to the whole class/college that you understand biology?

It could be argued that a teacher who thinks that people can change sex should be the one to say to the whole class/college that they don't believe in science.. that's not a good look for an educator, is it?

'Repeatedly making the point' that you accept that humans can't change their sex is just being factual, which is what teachers should be, isn't it?

Schools could take the heat out of the situation by stipulating that students will be addressed by their name as it appears on the register.
The students' sex will also be on record, presumably - the school must ensure they only use the toilet designated for their biological sex, so that makes pronoun use pretty clear too.

He doesn't have to parrot a view he doesn't believe in, he just had to use the name the student wanted and not be a dick.

I don't think humans can change sex either but I don't feel the need to tell everyone I meet, and especially don't feel the need to upset teenagers who do believe that.

People who 'just say it like it is' are universally complete twats. They have no social skills.

I'm personally an atheist, but I don't feel the need to challenge religious people all the time when they are just trying to go about their everyday lives.

Bet you would challenge them though if they made you say a Hail Mary every morning and confess your sins to a Priest.

279. The school or college should also make sure that children and their families are aware that while the school or college will appropriately sanction any cases of bullying or harassment, and take a strong stand against bullying, the school or college must also be conscious of the rights of pupils and staff in relation to their religion or belief. However, schools and colleges supporting social transition might consider discussing options with pupils and staff such as using names instead of pronouns.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is exactly what it says. The college must be conscious of the rights of the staff member in relation to their religion or belief. That doesn't mean be conscious of them then tell him he has to lie anyway, it means find a way to negotiate the situation so he doesn't have to say things that go against his belief.

I'll say again I don't agree with everything Mr Lister is quoted as having said. But the college shouldn't be trying to make him lie. Seems like college have not had that discussion with him in the light of his beliefs. And he has at least to some extent attempted to take a neutral position anyway by avoiding names and pronouns. Which puts him more in the right than the college were on this particular point.