Kevin Lister: teacher refused to use wrong sex pronouns, sacked: tribunal appeal

[MyAmpleSheep]

Is anyone following this case? The EAT hearing was yesterday and today.

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/k-lister-vs-new-college-swindon-dbs

I read that there was a competition (I think) for girls only, he made a point of telling this pupil that she'd be eligible for it. I mean he's not wrong but I think this is close to the above scenario.

Re. Stephen Flaherty, mentioned by a pp. He took Unison to court about them allowing a man to run for a post reserved for women only and won.

The ET against Nottingham College, he was sacked when the college concealed the social transition of a pupil from her parents, has a Crowdfund with this heading

Exposing Nottm College's secret transition of a child to her mother

I don't know if there's already a thread.

Yes - the Maths Olympiad for Girls. I mostly agree, but it is a little tricky, because it's a straightforwardly fantastic thing for a good maths student to do - good development opportunity, good thing to have on your university entrance application - and there isn't an equivalent available to boys (without first doing extremely well in a multiple choice exam - that was the idea, to give girls a step up to doing the most interesting things even though, partly through lack of encouragement, they were not making it to those interesting things in proportionate numbers by the open route). So it could be argued that, given she was a student who would and could benefit, it would have been dereliction of duty for him not to have mentioned it. Devil will be in the details.

I think at the time MOG included trans-identified pupils of both sexes - now they have changed policy thanks to FWS :-)

https://ukmt.org.uk/mathematical-olympiad-for-girls

I find it odd that schoolchildren can just pick a name to be known by. Surely they should be called by the name used when they were registered at the school, which is the name on their birth cert?

Sometimes that might be changed, for instance I know a few people who have a first name which they never use, probably because it was given to them to placate a relative but nobody liked it, so Anne Elizabeth was always Elizabeth, and only ever answered to Elizabeth, and the school might be told that, and would address her in class as Elizabeth not Anne.

A child called Amanda rocking up at the beginning of term and saying
'I now wish to be know as John' would be no more acceptable than Amanda saying 'I now wish to be known as Mary Jane'.

Sorry Amanda, unless your name as it appears on our register and your birth cert has been legally changed, you'll be addressed by the name you are registered under.

If I recall there was a lot of evidence about how he managed the situation that suggested he "stepped outside normal professional practice" in challenging this. Some of us weren't surprised that he lost his case.

BUT, the decision to refer him to the DBS system and have him barred from ever working with children (and presumably having an potential impact on his family life) is the issue. Many of us see that as political interference and aimed as a warning to teachers to keep quiet about the safeguarding breaches when schools / colleges socially transition children. It's a massive overreach by the state to label him as a safeguarding risk to all children and that's a big part of what he's challenging.
Especially in the light of the new KCSIE guidance that rightly places these vulnerable children within safeguarding as well as recognising the challenges when some demand adults and other students must spout language that promotes a belief others don't share.

He's been dogged in fighting back about this and should be acknowledged for his courage in challenging the abuse of the DBS system to punish him.

Yes. It's arguably a damned if he did/didn't scenario.

Also thanks to Mrs O for reminding me of the parameters of the case. It's definitely bigger than misgendering.

Wouldn't the actions of himself, the school, and DBS have to be judged in relation to the guidance in force at the time, not what it is now?

Even acknowledging the change in guidance, I'm not sure he'd be in a much better position because it suggests for staff who don't agree on this issue to use names instead of pronouns and he wouldn't even do that. Further, conducting a "unilateral safeguarding process" in public and against professional advice, will always land a teacher in hot water with their school and regulator.

I suspect it is also how he did it. A quiet word when no-one else could hear if he was using their name is one thing, in front of the rest of the class when he wasn't is another.

I don’t see how this is a safeguarding issue. he does not present a risk to the student。

That - like using the utterly grammatically correct "they" - is not what some people want.

Wouldn't the actions of himself, the school, and DBS have to be judged in relation to the guidance in force at the time, not what it is now?

Sounds sensible. But what if that guidance itself was unlawful/illegal ? Are people supposed to obey illegal laws ?

Does Kevin have legal representation this time? I think he didn’t initially?

The law always takes precedence over guidance.

I think in this appeal he has a direct access barrister but no solicitor.

At the ET he was self-represented.

The problem with that - suspiciously pat - answer is that it rather skims over why so much importance has been attached to the "guidance" which lack thereof (apparently) meant no one could obey the law. Something I commented on previously.

If the law is the law, then no matter what "guidance" is issued subsequently, it's still the law.

In this case it means that "just obeying orders following guidance" is no defence in a court.

As with so many of these cases he wasn't sacked only for what the headlines said. The 2024 tribunal found "that he was dismissed for expressing his beliefs in an "objectionable" manner, which staff say amounted to "bullying and harassment".

You can refuse to use the pronouns, you don't get to don't in a way that amounts to bullying and harassment.

womendeserveequalhumanrights · Today 09:39
Maybe they should go back to the historical public school model of just calling everyone by their last name!

Wasn't it Rachel McKinnon who, already under a name change, then changed his name to Veronica Ivy, just to avoid just such a situation?

Changing a surname to be a woman's name means that he will always be called a woman.

Proponents of this ideology will find any bloody way they can to get you to comply.

Which is why, although I understand that a name change should be a personal thing and respected for the most part, in terms of gender ideology, it's much more than that. It's very definitely a way to force compliance.

Plus, if this teacher was expected to call this pupil by another name, no questions asked, what's to stop every pupil in the class doing the same?

At the very least, there should be some kind of process, maybe a change by deed poll? just to prevent bandwagon jumping.

Either way, I personally regard a name change to the opposite sex as a much more loaded action than switching to your middle name, or using a diminutive.

"... Some of us weren't surprised that he lost his case..."

This ^

I followed the original tribunal.

I think the major problem was that he represented himself and did a pretty poor job of presenting his case and of challenging the respondent's case. Some of it was a bit painful to listen to

Hopefully with proper representation he might fare better

I am somewhat reminded of this classic

I think was his other problem.

even listening to his own case i wasn't convinced that he had approached the issue in a particularly sensible way. It seemed a bit hamfisted

I think the major problem was that he represented himself

There is a saying that such people have a fool for a client.

Isn’t that one of the gremlins?

I'm not sure? I thought it was another word for 'gadget'.

Gizmo was the cute Gremlin. Also a word for a high tech gadget.

Maybe that is what she had in mind?

Have to say I laughed out loud when my daughter told me of the new name.