The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

Sex (and yes, therefore gender) is repeated and asked about and noted and stated many times every day.

yes, all the bloody time. You're a good girl, you're a good boy.

And any subsequent pregnancies bring the issue up repeatedly.

I'm amazed Lacksy has absolutely no knowledge of this (not really).

not magic, no. patterns of electrical and chemical signalling within the brain, organised by its underlying neural structures and networks.

And your argument is a complete non sequitur. It’s rather like asking, “If my brain can recognise my arm as part of my body, why can’t it recognise the chair I’m sitting on as part of my body?”

The existence of one form of self-perception doesn’t imply the existence of every other imaginable form of self-perception.

And what exactly is the difficulty with your hypothetical trans child? If she asks whether she’ll be able to become pregnant when she’s older, she can be given an honest, age-appropriate explanation that she won’t. Just as we can explain to any child that not all women can become pregnant or give birth.

Oh stop. A male ‘trans child’ won’t be able to become pregnant because they are male not because ‘not all women can become pregnant’.

patterns of electrical and chemical signalling within the brain, organised by its underlying neural structures and networks.

Yes, children learn words and the meaning of words, including how the words apply to them and other people.

There’s a very handy essay by JK Rowling that is a great illustration of how to clearly communicate ideas. You should read it. And take notes.

Where has it been explained? Can you point me to an explanation? Or briefly explain how it does work, rather than how it doesn't?

I have made zero assumptions about how it works or what it entails because I do not know. I have tried asking people in real life and been accused of being a transphobe, which I am not. And I have asked on this forum and effectively been dismissed for asking.

I’ve only got the one child so didn’t have this experience but my observations of parents of multiples is that children are interested/involved to varying degrees about subsequent pregnancies and seek to understand how this relates to them now and their future self. Did your 4yr old not ask questions when you were pregnant @Lacksie - will it be a boy or a girl, will I have a baby in my tummy when I grow up? Etc…

Ummm… because the chair is not attached to your body 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

there has been quite extensive research into pro prioception and recognition of body parts. In some situations people can and do learn that a foreign object is part of their body.

I suppose what this comes down to is a blank slate argument, really. Women on here are generally saying that a child learns and is taught its sex and gender, whereas you are saying a child is born with innate knowledge of said sex/gender.

Lacksy is surprised by how their children know what sex they are. They just know. There's no rhyme or reason to any of it.

It’s magic

Seems intuitive doesn't it? But nope that doesn't hold. This has also been discussed on the thread. Why don't you try reading it.

Oh I have. And the links you posted. You’re still talking gubbins.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but this thread has turned into the usual repetitive goading by posters who've been here from the start and almost full, so definitely not the place. Maybe a new one to start afresh.
Theres also a lot of discussion of this already on this thread if you want to read it- although you have to trawl through a lot of nonsense and people throwing rocks so I can understand why you wouldn't .

Great - we will let you start a thread with a title explaining what you are trying to say or what you believe in.

Meanwhile any thoughts on JK Rowlings update essay?

Lacksy you haven't, and can't explain. You've deflected the question, endlessly. And now you want people to start a new thread about it.

This attention seeking behaviour is probably not the healthiest.

If you had, you’d have read that recognising that an arm is physically attached to your body and experiencing that arm as your own involve distinct, albeit interacting, neurocognitive processes.

We know this because of neurological conditions such as somatoparaphrenia, in which people can recognise that a limb is physically attached to their body while denying that it belongs to them, sometimes insisting that it belongs to someone else.
In other words, the brain’s representation of physical anatomy and its subjective sense of bodily ownership are not the same thing. They can actually be dissociated following neurological damage.

So your assumption that recognising something as part of yourself is simply a matter of observing its physical characteristics is demonstrably wrong.

This has been discussed more than once of course.

Yes lacksie, 4 yr olds often do not yet know what really makes them a boy or a girl.

They know it about themselves because their parents have told them. And they observe society around them and draw naive wrong conclusions about what it means. Stereotypes. Or it might be they think it's about who you can play with. Not deep unexplainable gender theory conclusions. DS thought being a girl meant having your hair tied in a knot till we explained.

3-6ish is peak age for trying to enforce stereotype rules. They have observed the world, they think they've deduced a rule, and then they get cross with people who don't fit with the rule as it confuses the world picture they're building.

Normal development is that someone then explains to them that no, being a girl is just about bodies, boys can like pink too if they want, they slot that into their world building and things make sense again.

Those of us who have had preschoolers who persistently, consistently declare "I just am" a train, or a dinosaur, or a cat, or one of mine aged 6 was frequently a baby owl, know how much value a young child's blank insistence has. It means something to them, something very simple and naive like I like playing with this group of girls at preschool, or I want to be that girl in a book, they're just not articulating it at the moment. Venerating a 4 yr old's declaration as deep and meaningful is actually bonkers.

It seems @Lacksie that MN might not be the right place for your level of intelligence. You did actually comment on this earlier in the week.

Why not start a thread about neuro cognivity, the brain etc? Lay out your observations and people can and will be open to a discussion.

When people disagree you accuse them of goading. They are not.

When questions are asked you have a multitude of reasons you cannot answer.

Lacksie

you say you're heavily invested in transgenderism, you have children that you appear to not be in contact with, certainly on a daily basis.

Are you a transwoman who is divorced?

I'm not a blank slate absolutist. But the gender identity argument seems to perform a weird transformation of linguistic theory into mystical waffle.

As far as I can tell it suggests babies are born knowing and feeling their sex with a feeling that, is preverbal and even pre cognitive. A mix of a pro prioceptive perception of a body with .... what? What is this ineffable miasmic essence?

We have body awareness and we have bodies. We learn they are female or male.

Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow...

For this hypothetical boy who thinks he's a girl. The answer would unfortunately have to be No, sorry it will never happen for you.

I'm waiting, and I'm sure it's coming, for the trans demand that advice is changed. At least one woman has given birth with a transplanted uterus. I have absolutely no doubt that there are trans people exploring that possibility for themselves right now and that it will one day happen.

And that teachers will then be told to tell questioning little boys that they will indeed be able to give birth if they want to.

That icon pioneer of trans surgery Lili Elbe died because they insisted against medical advice on a 4th surgery, a uterus transplant, when immunosuppression wasn't understood or possible.

I don't like how the future looks on this one.

To be fair @Lacksie if you do want to explain how you have ended up here and are distressed at all my experience on MN is most of us are good listeners and compassionate.

The more you post the more I am concerned about you.
Please reach out with whatever reality is pushing you to post incessantly.

Trans issues are pernicious. They rarely shine joyously and tend to taint things they touch. Workers in the office having to pretend their colleagues are male or female - I have experience of that and it is horrible. It isn’t kind. You are simply going along with a mental delusion / illness. Silly conversations with the girl who thinks she is a man about shaving etc. The man who thinks he is female using the ladies loo and doing a massive dump every morning and not cleaning up after himself. Yes this happened. And we complained but nothing was said as we were told to ‘be kind’ and a cleaner was deployed to clean up the toilet after his dump. And yes the cleaner was a woman.

It is also important to remember that it needs to be considered that some people will post about what all people with transgender identities experience, while not being transgender themselves and their information will, in effect, arbitrate who is and isn’t transgender.

And will claim to be informed or well informed on the topic. While acting as a gatekeeper to who is and isn’t transgender