Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:40

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:32

I do however have a lot of experience with children who are convinced they are dinosaurs, Batman, a chicken, a princess and a dog. Should I have affirmed all of them? If not, why not? How would I know the child convinced they were a dog was not actually a dog and I should have let him eat off the floor and sleep in a kennel rather then gently telling him he was actually a boy so needed to eat at the table and sleep in a bed. Who knew that was the equivalent of psychological abuse according to you. That poor poor kid. He could have been a heroic rescue dog but I destroyed all his dreams.

"Girl" is different from "dinosaur", "Batman", "chicken", "princess" or "dog". Because we can ask a boy what a princess is, why they're Batman, or what they like about being a dog. "Girl" alone is innate and beyond investigation.

OP posts:
RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/10/2026 13:46

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 06:12

Gently, what you are missing, is there never needs to be a point where you do that.

Gently, what you appear to be missing is that with many, there comes a point when they want to harm themselves by taking drugs (blockers and hormones) and sometimes extreme cosmetic surgery. And at that point, you can either say "bless you my child, of course I approve of your self harm aided and abetted by various 'professionals' with no ethics" or you can suggest that this is not a great course of action. If you have gone along with their insistence that they are a transwoman or transman, and TWAW and TMAM, and called them by gender based pronouns etc., you can't then say "but I don't think following that path to its fullest logical extent is the best way of handling your distress". Because you have spent the last few years saying "you are a girl/woman" or "you are a boy/man", and if you try to backtrack the slightest bit, you will be dismissed as a transphobic bigot (who has been radicalised on MumsNet!).

Any parent who cares about their child's physical health, and who has not been persuaded that damaging their child's physical health is a necessary way of responding to "gender incongruence or dysphoria", will be very likely to reach "the point where you [need to] do that".

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/10/2026 13:56

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 06:26

The child knows they are different already. They know what anatomy they have, and they also develop developmentally appropriate knowledge over time of how society (sadly) treats children like them. You can't protect your child from that, you can only support your child to navigate it, try to educate others, and advocate for change.

Nothing about "working with your child" in the way I described involves lying to them- it simply acknowledges and recognises the reality of their psychological experience, for exactly what it is, and works with that reality instead of against it.

The child knows they are different already.

The child knows they feel different already. The boy does not know he is a girl. He feels that he is not a boy, and he thinks that makes him a girl because some of those around him tell him, directly or indirectly, that girls are the ones who do the things he likes doing. He could just think he's a defective boy because he feels he's not like the other boys, in which case building up his self esteem would be helpful. He cannot know he's a girl unless people around him are in some way telling him that.

This all applies to the trans adults I know, as far as I can tell. They feel that they are different from other women or other men, and they interpret that through the lens of queer theory, which tells them that they have a "gender identity' which is incompatible with their sex. This is a very unhelpful way of understanding sex and gender (where gender is the social construct which ties certain personality types to women and other ones to men).

Edited to correct "elf estemm" to "self esteem"!

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 14:00

It never fails to shock me to the core that some of the very people who should have safeguarded these children offered them up as a sacrifice because ... what? They were overworked? A 'charity' told them to do it? They didn't have sufficient professional integrity to ask questions? They cared more about their own standing than the lives of their patients?

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/10/2026 14:15

Lacksie · 19/10/2026 19:58

Yes, absolutely, and that’s why your initial question about a child raised by wolves is an interesting one and impossible to answer with confidence. Children learn about sex categories and the words to describe them through social learning. A child who was never exposed to this learning might never develop gender incongruence, or they might have a sense that something about their body feels wrong but lack the words and concepts to identify and describe what they are feeling. We cannot know.

But it doesn’t follow from this that how a child neurocognitively or psychologically identifies with one category or another must itself be determined by social learning—or depends on inferring their identity from a particular learned account of what a girl or a boy is.

Developmental theories do not simply treat children’s identification as boys or girls as a deduction from stereotypes. Some propose that identifying with a category helps organise children’s subsequent learning about gendered interests and behaviours, rather than merely resulting from it. Children can identify themselves as boys or girls before they can clearly explain what being a boy or girl means, or how they recognise themselves as one.

That’s where the language analogy was helpful: language development depends on social interaction, but our capacity to acquire language has a neurobiological basis. There is no basis for excluding this possibility for how gender identity develops. Indeed it is my view that it is the only explanation we have, as it stands, that can adequately and meaningfully account for the body of empirical evidence.

Cognition is the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses - you don't need to over-complicate it by referring to it as 'neuro-cognivity'.

Expectations can be transmitted on non verbal levels too. Children live in the shadow of their parents' psyche. Understanding is three dimensional - not just absorbed through the rational function. A mother of father, for example, that transmits strong feelings of disappointment that their child is of the opposite sex to that desired - is being picked up by the child, even if they cannot rationalise and name it.

A child cannot 'identify' itself as a child of the opposite sex without any former impressions of what being a boy or a girl is predicated upon. The messaging comes first, the 'identification' later.

Helleofabore · 20/10/2026 14:28

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

Do you have evidence to support your claim that “Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park"” to a 5 yr old?

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 14:41

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 10:07

If a boy is insisting that he is a girl, what meaning is he attaching to the word "girl"?

You can't know what he means by the statement "I'm a girl" unless you know what he thinks the word "girl" means.

So, @Lacksie , this question has now been asked in various forms and by several different posters. Do you feel up to answering at least one of the versions of it yet? You seem to be happy to answer other posts, but appear to be avoiding this question. Tbh, if you don't, I think some of us are going to assume that it is because you can't.

MrPrettyDamnCosmic · 20/10/2026 14:43

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

Please can you tell us what authority you have that enables you to speak so dogmatically? What is your expertise?

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 14:51

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:02

Informed consent was in the context of a question about puberty blockers , FAM hormones and surgical interventions. These are medical interventions that are never given to 5 year olds. The first intervention is puberty blockers which can can be provided from Tanner stage 2 puberty. Informed consent is obtained using the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines as per all areas of health/ medical care for under 16s.

These are all treatments that have been given to teenagers though haven’t they? How does a teenager give informed consent to undergo treatment that may impair their fertility, remove their capacity to breastfeed, damage their ability to orgasm, give them lifelong bone/joint problems, make them incontinent….all whilst they are teenagers who may never even have kissed anyone, had an orgasm, meaningfully been able to consider whether they want children or not, have any concept of what it is like to have osteoporosis or incontinence? As opposed to supporting that YP until they at least reach maturity?
You are very keen to push the possible neuro-cognitive aspects of being trans whilst simultaneously faiing to acknowledge the hugely important role that puberty has in developing our neuro-cognitive functions. Children and YP have to be consented for all manner of potentially harmful interventions eg.when they are going through cancer treatment but there is a level of paternalism when that treatment has the capacity to save their lives and so medics tread that difficult ethical line. I don’t consider gender affirming treatment to meet that level of scrutiny. I also note you say FIRST intervention which raises the question that you presume this progresses onto the others.

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 14:57

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

..but you don’t have a gender confused child? How do you have a clue?

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 14:58

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 14:57

..but you don’t have a gender confused child? How do you have a clue?

Because laxy is an expert in all things.

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 15:05

I once asked Lacksie on a deleted thread how they could show such empathy for the TW denied access to the toilet of their choice but fail to show any empathy to the sexual abuse survivor actually posting on the thread who was explaining how it impacted her trauma - as you might have guessed, they didn’t respond . I am full of empathy for the gender distressed child and their parents who have to witness their child’s pain and are desperately trying to help, I just don’t think any form of affirmative medical intervention is the solution .

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2026 15:05

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 13:37

Same experience that most posters on here have.

You remind me of this glorious Mumsnet thread from ages ago, now found in classics:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/1852343-Well-That-went-well-didnt-it

Ahahahaha!

I love this:

Maybe if we do cinema, then soft play she will be tired?

And will just come home and sit still?

BackToLurk · 20/10/2026 15:11

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 14:57

..but you don’t have a gender confused child? How do you have a clue?

There also seems to be an assumption by lacksie that no one on the thread, that disagrees with her, either has now or has had a gender confused child.

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 15:15

BackToLurk · 20/10/2026 15:11

There also seems to be an assumption by lacksie that no one on the thread, that disagrees with her, either has now or has had a gender confused child.

It was similar on the Sandie Peggie thread. Zero appreciation that women do not want then in their spaces, well most of us.

Just post after post after post with no relevance to the tribunal. Any questions ignored or batted away as it was school run/mealtime/work presentation time/they felt insulted/they had to go because (insert excuse).

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 15:23

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 14:41

So, @Lacksie , this question has now been asked in various forms and by several different posters. Do you feel up to answering at least one of the versions of it yet? You seem to be happy to answer other posts, but appear to be avoiding this question. Tbh, if you don't, I think some of us are going to assume that it is because you can't.

I would like to know this too. It's really why I started the thread.

I would also like to know what sort of "assessment" that is said to be important is conducted on a 4 year old boy who says they're a girl. What does the assessment consist of and what difference to the outcome does it make? Are there any four year olds claiming to be the opposite sex who are not to be affirmed in that?

My concern is that we are adopting a proof by personal belief standard here: I, personally, can't conceive that a four year old would go to the trouble of claiming a cross-sex identity unless it was 100% a genuine innate characteristic, therefore it must be a genuine innate characteristic.

Which is the same as the argument against evolution: I, personally, don't believe that something as complicated as life could arise without conscious design, therefore God exists.

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 20/10/2026 15:34

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

I wanted to come back to this in relation to something else I've been reading

If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

There is a fairly well-documented phenomenon of children being entirely convinced that they don't 'belong' in their family. They feel they have nothing in common or they don't look like the others or something else triggers it. A child is absolutely sure. Anyway, I was reading an account of this and they said something along the lines of becoming aware of the concept of adoption and at that point thinking "well that's it, I must be adopted". It gave them a neat explanation of what they were feeling.

Humans in general like explanations (see religion). "I don't feel like how I'm being told boys feel so I must be a girl" is a neat explanation. (I'm using 'told' in it's broadest sense of all the explicit and implicit signals children are given about 'gender').

Helleofabore · 20/10/2026 15:38

BackToLurk · 20/10/2026 15:11

There also seems to be an assumption by lacksie that no one on the thread, that disagrees with her, either has now or has had a gender confused child.

Or been a child with gender incongruence.

Of course, as there is also a particular arbitration of who is and is not transgender as defined by that poster’s personal criteria, it is always going to be the case that anything anyone says that doesn’t agree with that criteria is dismissed by the person has said they are informed.

HotChocolateHotCoffeeColdDrinks · 20/10/2026 15:39

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2026 15:05

Ahahahaha!

I love this:

Maybe if we do cinema, then soft play she will be tired?

And will just come home and sit still?

See also "she asked for scissors"

I remember this from the time as I also had a 4 year old. It's far more funny to read now.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 15:45

@MyAmpleSheep My concern is that we are adopting a proof by personal belief standard here: I, personally, can't conceive that a four year old would go to the trouble of claiming a cross-sex identity unless it was 100% a genuine innate characteristic, therefore it must be a genuine innate characteristic.

Often bolstered by middle-aged men who refuse to accept that they have developed a sexual fetish and so retcon their childhood to insist that the cross-sex identity was always there.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 15:50

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 15:45

@MyAmpleSheep My concern is that we are adopting a proof by personal belief standard here: I, personally, can't conceive that a four year old would go to the trouble of claiming a cross-sex identity unless it was 100% a genuine innate characteristic, therefore it must be a genuine innate characteristic.

Often bolstered by middle-aged men who refuse to accept that they have developed a sexual fetish and so retcon their childhood to insist that the cross-sex identity was always there.

Agreed. I think adults and adolescents transitioning are very different things from this, and from each other. And the proof by personal incredulity fails very badly when it comes to adults. "I can't believe someone would go to that much trouble." Well I can!

But (I think) we can eliminate fear of adolescence and fetishism from being in very young children's minds in terms of what they are thinking when they say that they are the opposite sex.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 20/10/2026 15:54

Lacksie They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

A point of agreement! Gender-questioning children should never be dismissed or ridiculed, absolutely not by adults.

They should also not be lied to about their biological sex by adults.

Their distress and need for support should be based not on adult prejudices, but on evidence-based scientific fact.
Which says that human sex is binary and immutable.
Therefore the evidence-based support that children deserve must be based on the fact that whatever sex they are born with, they still are and always will be.
Not adult input based on prejudice against scientific fact.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 16:05

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 14:41

So, @Lacksie , this question has now been asked in various forms and by several different posters. Do you feel up to answering at least one of the versions of it yet? You seem to be happy to answer other posts, but appear to be avoiding this question. Tbh, if you don't, I think some of us are going to assume that it is because you can't.

I've tried to answer this already! and explain it in so many ways.

I can try again if you insist, but I do wonder what the value is. I understand that people on this thread are not going to accept my authority - and I'm not asking you to. Why would you? I'm a random user on the internet. But the point of this conversation is surely to have a meaningful exchange? So there's little point in asking questions if pp's are simply going to dismiss them with the response - well who are you,and why should I believe you anyway. (That ofc being the milder end of the spectrum).

So I'll try again, but only it people want to sincerely engage with the explanation rather than who the person writing it might be. You don't have to agree with it, but at least try to think about it, and consider whether it's at least possible.
I can't 'prove' to you that what I'm saying is true, but what I can do is present you with an explanation, if you are genuinely interested in hearing one.

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 16:17

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 16:05

I've tried to answer this already! and explain it in so many ways.

I can try again if you insist, but I do wonder what the value is. I understand that people on this thread are not going to accept my authority - and I'm not asking you to. Why would you? I'm a random user on the internet. But the point of this conversation is surely to have a meaningful exchange? So there's little point in asking questions if pp's are simply going to dismiss them with the response - well who are you,and why should I believe you anyway. (That ofc being the milder end of the spectrum).

So I'll try again, but only it people want to sincerely engage with the explanation rather than who the person writing it might be. You don't have to agree with it, but at least try to think about it, and consider whether it's at least possible.
I can't 'prove' to you that what I'm saying is true, but what I can do is present you with an explanation, if you are genuinely interested in hearing one.

So what's your answer?

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 16:22

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 16:17

So what's your answer?

....all external and secondary processing systems are being brought online....

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.