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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

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Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 12:43

@Lacksie well we can most definitely all agree on this “At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support“
are you ever going to answer any of the questions I put to you ? If you are autistic just say so and I will leave you to it. From my own family members I know that debating complex issues with someone who has justice sensitivity and fixed beliefs means there is never any resolution or wavering.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 12:46

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:33

You're both misrepresenting and trivialising a child's experience of a very real and often very painful psychological condition.

“Having a right to be taken seriously” is neither here nor there, and fails to engage with the seriousness of the issue. At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

That’s not a fair criticism. Very young children in deep distress are absolutely not always accurate reporters of the cause of their distress any more than they are at other times, in fact probably even less so.

If a child refuses to, for example, go to a swimming class, it could be because they have a stomach ache as they claim, or genuinely scared of the water, or it could be because last time someone else in the class bullied them, or for some other reason.

Very young children are not accurate reporteurs and investigation needs to be done. What do you mean by “girl” is an appropriate angle to look into.

if a child says my stomach hurts and you ask where the pain is and they point to their toe, they probably don’t have appendicitis.

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OldCrone · 20/10/2026 12:47

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:33

You're both misrepresenting and trivialising a child's experience of a very real and often very painful psychological condition.

“Having a right to be taken seriously” is neither here nor there, and fails to engage with the seriousness of the issue. At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

Going back to this comment of yours:

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience.

How do you know this male child is 'gender incongruent' other than that he is distressed and says "I am a girl"?

If he's not making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, what is he actually doing? What does he think he is claiming to be when he claims to be a girl? We need to know what he thinks the word "girl" means, to make him claim to be one when he is quite clearly a boy, and knows he's a boy.

What is this "reality of [his] own subjective psychological experience"? What is he experiencing that has led him make this claim? Without knowing this, how do we know if he is claiming to be a girl, or just wants to be a girl so that he can wear pretty dresses like his sister. And if he is claiming to actually be a girl, what does that claim mean to him?

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:51

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 12:43

@Lacksie well we can most definitely all agree on this “At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support“
are you ever going to answer any of the questions I put to you ? If you are autistic just say so and I will leave you to it. From my own family members I know that debating complex issues with someone who has justice sensitivity and fixed beliefs means there is never any resolution or wavering.

Lol no, I'm not autistic, and I certainly don't think I'm the one struggling to recognise complexity or question fixed beliefs in this debate.

Apologies, I meant to respond to your post about the Finnish study yesterday evening, but the answer isn't straightforward.

In terms of your latest question, of course I think we should be asking questions about the link between ASD and gender diversity—I'm really interested in these questions.

I also don't think we should be treating children without careful assessment, informed consent and proper data collection/follow-up. However, nor should we be withholding care from children who need it because of ideology or politics. Care should be based on clinical judgement, the available evidence and informed consent, weighing the potential benefits and harms in individual cases.

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 12:58

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:51

Lol no, I'm not autistic, and I certainly don't think I'm the one struggling to recognise complexity or question fixed beliefs in this debate.

Apologies, I meant to respond to your post about the Finnish study yesterday evening, but the answer isn't straightforward.

In terms of your latest question, of course I think we should be asking questions about the link between ASD and gender diversity—I'm really interested in these questions.

I also don't think we should be treating children without careful assessment, informed consent and proper data collection/follow-up. However, nor should we be withholding care from children who need it because of ideology or politics. Care should be based on clinical judgement, the available evidence and informed consent, weighing the potential benefits and harms in individual cases.

So how can a 5 year old give informed consent? To anything? Or are you suggesting the parents make the decisions? What if the parents are homophobic like Jackie Green’s parents who would rather a trans daughter than a gay son? How would you exclude any hint of parental interference or influence?

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 12:59

@Lacksie

I also don't think we should be treating children without careful assessment,

what does careful assessment mean in the case of a four year old boy, if not asking what they think a girl is?

Careful assessment means there must be cases you reject for affirmation: otherwise it’s meaningless. What are the criteria for deciding if a four year old is genuine and should be affirmed?

Consent

And what kind of meaningful consent can a four year old boy give?

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ArabellaScott · 20/10/2026 13:00

the Pathways trial explicitly acknowledges that children can't give consent. So they ask for 'assent' instead.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:02

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 12:58

So how can a 5 year old give informed consent? To anything? Or are you suggesting the parents make the decisions? What if the parents are homophobic like Jackie Green’s parents who would rather a trans daughter than a gay son? How would you exclude any hint of parental interference or influence?

Informed consent was in the context of a question about puberty blockers , FAM hormones and surgical interventions. These are medical interventions that are never given to 5 year olds. The first intervention is puberty blockers which can can be provided from Tanner stage 2 puberty. Informed consent is obtained using the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines as per all areas of health/ medical care for under 16s.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:09

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:02

Informed consent was in the context of a question about puberty blockers , FAM hormones and surgical interventions. These are medical interventions that are never given to 5 year olds. The first intervention is puberty blockers which can can be provided from Tanner stage 2 puberty. Informed consent is obtained using the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines as per all areas of health/ medical care for under 16s.

Affirmation is intervention and treatment and needs informed consent. It's not a neutral act at all.

How do we get consent from a four year old?

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OldCrone · 20/10/2026 13:15

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:09

Affirmation is intervention and treatment and needs informed consent. It's not a neutral act at all.

How do we get consent from a four year old?

A four year old boy who says he's a girl, but nobody knows what he means by this.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:17

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience, rather than continuing to dismiss, contradict or deny it when doing so is unhelpful and causing profound distress. It may involve accepting changes in dress or in the language used to address or refer to the child. Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another; the same applies to the clothes they are expected or permitted to wear. None of this is irreversible medical treatment requiring a four-year-old to provide clinical informed consent. It is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach to supporting the child in the present.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:19

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 13:15

A four year old boy who says he's a girl, but nobody knows what he means by this.

Quite.

I'd like an answer to the consent question, but I'd also like an answer to the question about what "careful assessment" means. What are the criteria for rejecting a boy's claim to be a girl?

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StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:21

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:02

Informed consent was in the context of a question about puberty blockers , FAM hormones and surgical interventions. These are medical interventions that are never given to 5 year olds. The first intervention is puberty blockers which can can be provided from Tanner stage 2 puberty. Informed consent is obtained using the Gillick competence and Fraser guidelines as per all areas of health/ medical care for under 16s.

So ok, what else fo you think 9 year olds can consent to? Go on…. There must be other things you think children are able to make life altering decisions on? I mean, that will be a tough conversation won’t it? You can take these pills to stop your puberty, they won’t make you a girl, you’ll still have to change with the boys, play on boys teams and go in male facilities, but hey, take these for some reason…. Or are you suggesting puberty blockers will make this boy a girl? Shouldn’t his parents and doctors tell him that they will not change anything and that no one knows the long term effects of these drugs?

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:22

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:17

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience, rather than continuing to dismiss, contradict or deny it when doing so is unhelpful and causing profound distress. It may involve accepting changes in dress or in the language used to address or refer to the child. Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another; the same applies to the clothes they are expected or permitted to wear. None of this is irreversible medical treatment requiring a four-year-old to provide clinical informed consent. It is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach to supporting the child in the present.

Dr. Cass doesn't agree with you. Thankfully. Nor do I.

Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another;

And that's just an extraordinary claim and wrong on its face. One set of pronouns matches a child's sex; changing it to the other is far from neutral. That's the way the English language works.

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BackToLurk · 20/10/2026 13:23

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:17

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience, rather than continuing to dismiss, contradict or deny it when doing so is unhelpful and causing profound distress. It may involve accepting changes in dress or in the language used to address or refer to the child. Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another; the same applies to the clothes they are expected or permitted to wear. None of this is irreversible medical treatment requiring a four-year-old to provide clinical informed consent. It is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach to supporting the child in the present.

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience

This appears to be capable of meaning two things

  1. recognising the child is having a real distressing experience

or

  1. recognising the child as really the ‘gender’ they say they are.

No one has an issue with 1. It’s 2 that causes the disagreement.

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:23

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:17

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience, rather than continuing to dismiss, contradict or deny it when doing so is unhelpful and causing profound distress. It may involve accepting changes in dress or in the language used to address or refer to the child. Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another; the same applies to the clothes they are expected or permitted to wear. None of this is irreversible medical treatment requiring a four-year-old to provide clinical informed consent. It is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach to supporting the child in the present.

Of course clothes don’t matter. Let the boy play with dolls, wear dresses and do whatever he likes, just make it very clear that this in no way makes him a girl. He cannot be a girl, he is a boy. Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:25

The correct and accurate answer to consent is that if the child is too young, the parents (or responsible adult) can consent on the child's behalf; but that's where we run into problems.

Unlike a decision about an emergency appendectomy where the risks and likely outcomes are known, if the parents are activitists or prone to influence by activists then they make the decision not from an informed perspective about the genuine long term risks and effects on the child, nor about the likelihood of the distress self-resolving.

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Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:23

Of course clothes don’t matter. Let the boy play with dolls, wear dresses and do whatever he likes, just make it very clear that this in no way makes him a girl. He cannot be a girl, he is a boy. Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:27

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

Hahahaha no. Sorry but no. What would be really cruel is affirming the boy as a girl, then in a few years having to tell him that he’s not really a girl, he’s a boy and has to change and play sports with the boys because even though every one told him he was a girl, turns out they were lying and he’s not. I mean, how evil would you have to be to do that to a kid….

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:28

@Lacksie Noting your thoughts that positive affirmation as the other sex doesn't count as treatment and doesn't need informed consent, tell me more about your ideas as to what counts as "careful assessment" of a child with gender dysphoria. What is being assessed, and how?

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HousePlantEmergency · 20/10/2026 13:29

I don't believe this poster has ever met a 4 year old.
I'll say it again. Luckily your views mean you won't have any influence over children in an educational setting.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 13:30

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:33

You're both misrepresenting and trivialising a child's experience of a very real and often very painful psychological condition.

“Having a right to be taken seriously” is neither here nor there, and fails to engage with the seriousness of the issue. At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

This comment highlights why extreme transactivists are in retreat. Instead of restricting themselves to violating women's boundaries and mangling science, language and facts, they went for children. Selling children the lie that sex change was possible, that developing bodies could be wrong but changed using language, drugs and surgery. Along with suggesting that parents trying to safeguard children from these age inappropriate beliefs are transphobic, bigots and working against their children's interests.

All enabled by the media, publishing presenting sex change to children as positive, (I am Leo, Jazz etc). Along with so many useful idiots in government funding adult trans groups to go into schools and sell the same notions.

The ending of #nodebate has allowed parents and responsible adults to speak about this, to highlight the immense damage that's been done to so many young people, resulting in the new guidance that removes this gaslighting from the young. Along with insisting that these mentally vulnerable children must have access to informed therapeutic support rather than the attention of trans extremists.

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:32

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:25

Redirection works very well. “No, you're not a girl,youre a boy, now do you want to go to the park or do some art?”

You have absolutely no clue about parenting a child with persistent and consistent gender incongruence. Saying this to the child is the psychological equivalent of punching them hard in the stomach and then saying "now love lets go to the park".

I do however have a lot of experience with children who are convinced they are dinosaurs, Batman, a chicken, a princess and a dog. Should I have affirmed all of them? If not, why not? How would I know the child convinced they were a dog was not actually a dog and I should have let him eat off the floor and sleep in a kennel rather then gently telling him he was actually a boy so needed to eat at the table and sleep in a bed. Who knew that was the equivalent of psychological abuse according to you. That poor poor kid. He could have been a heroic rescue dog but I destroyed all his dreams.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 13:37

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:32

I do however have a lot of experience with children who are convinced they are dinosaurs, Batman, a chicken, a princess and a dog. Should I have affirmed all of them? If not, why not? How would I know the child convinced they were a dog was not actually a dog and I should have let him eat off the floor and sleep in a kennel rather then gently telling him he was actually a boy so needed to eat at the table and sleep in a bed. Who knew that was the equivalent of psychological abuse according to you. That poor poor kid. He could have been a heroic rescue dog but I destroyed all his dreams.

Same experience that most posters on here have.

You remind me of this glorious Mumsnet thread from ages ago, now found in classics:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/1852343-Well-That-went-well-didnt-it

Well. That went well, didnt it....... | Mumsnet

So I am looking after my friends 3 year old for the weekend. I'd just like to point out, before I post the wonderful things that have happened since...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/1852343-Well-That-went-well-didnt-it

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 13:39

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 13:37

Same experience that most posters on here have.

You remind me of this glorious Mumsnet thread from ages ago, now found in classics:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/1852343-Well-That-went-well-didnt-it

Oooh i’m off to read thst now. Yeah, this kid was adamant for months he was a dog. According to @lacksie I’m evil for not affirming him. #sadtimes.

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