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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

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HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 16:23

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 16:05

I've tried to answer this already! and explain it in so many ways.

I can try again if you insist, but I do wonder what the value is. I understand that people on this thread are not going to accept my authority - and I'm not asking you to. Why would you? I'm a random user on the internet. But the point of this conversation is surely to have a meaningful exchange? So there's little point in asking questions if pp's are simply going to dismiss them with the response - well who are you,and why should I believe you anyway. (That ofc being the milder end of the spectrum).

So I'll try again, but only it people want to sincerely engage with the explanation rather than who the person writing it might be. You don't have to agree with it, but at least try to think about it, and consider whether it's at least possible.
I can't 'prove' to you that what I'm saying is true, but what I can do is present you with an explanation, if you are genuinely interested in hearing one.

It's up to you really. Either you think that what you have to say is worth saying, or you don't.

MarieDeGournay · 20/10/2026 16:23

So I'll try again, but only it people want to sincerely engage with the explanation rather than who the person writing it might be.

I'm very engaging, Lacksie!Smile I'm reading the articles you linked to in a previous post - well the ones I can access in full anyway.

I'm interested that you link to three papers by Diane N. Ruble, you must rate her.

Having read one paper that I had access to so far, she seems to believe that perceived gender stereotypes have a big role in children's development of their gender ID, which would appear to run counter to what you think?

I'll keep reading, maybe she says something else elsewhere.

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 16:35

So much of this discussion boils down to the fact safeguarding children should be our absolute priority. That means protecting their innocence. As they mature we gradually explain different thought processes. We are all well aware that certain children will grow up to be gay or lesbian. They will work that out for themselves with sensible supportive adults around them. They do not need books aged 5 talking about trans pride. they should not be going to watch trans pride events.

No, I am not homophobic I am realistic to the fact these events have been infiltrated by the fetish / furry community.

We owe it to a generation of children to protect them for the darkest parts of society. If they choose in later life to get involved with these darker parts of society that is their choice.

As things stand the guardrails seems to have completely fallen off society.

MarieDeGournay · 20/10/2026 16:51

I'm not sure I'd use the word 'innocence' about children, BlueLegume, but I agree about giving children as much clear space and time to work things out for themselves, without getting inappropriate adult labels stuck on them at an early age.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 16:52

MarieDeGournay · 20/10/2026 16:23

So I'll try again, but only it people want to sincerely engage with the explanation rather than who the person writing it might be.

I'm very engaging, Lacksie!Smile I'm reading the articles you linked to in a previous post - well the ones I can access in full anyway.

I'm interested that you link to three papers by Diane N. Ruble, you must rate her.

Having read one paper that I had access to so far, she seems to believe that perceived gender stereotypes have a big role in children's development of their gender ID, which would appear to run counter to what you think?

I'll keep reading, maybe she says something else elsewhere.

That’s not my understanding of Ruble’s work. She distinguishes children’s developing identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and expectations associated with that category.

Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes.

Fidgetbreak · 20/10/2026 17:03

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 13:19

Quite.

I'd like an answer to the consent question, but I'd also like an answer to the question about what "careful assessment" means. What are the criteria for rejecting a boy's claim to be a girl?

@Lacksie I think this is a very smart question, would like to hear your response as it would certainly clarify your concepts about gender identity etc. Help people understand.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 17:03

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 16:35

So much of this discussion boils down to the fact safeguarding children should be our absolute priority. That means protecting their innocence. As they mature we gradually explain different thought processes. We are all well aware that certain children will grow up to be gay or lesbian. They will work that out for themselves with sensible supportive adults around them. They do not need books aged 5 talking about trans pride. they should not be going to watch trans pride events.

No, I am not homophobic I am realistic to the fact these events have been infiltrated by the fetish / furry community.

We owe it to a generation of children to protect them for the darkest parts of society. If they choose in later life to get involved with these darker parts of society that is their choice.

As things stand the guardrails seems to have completely fallen off society.

Edited

Well said. I'm not sure when it was that society decided to favour adults trying to remove those guardrails. They've been pandered to for far too long - it's a relief to see them finally being challenged and removed from influence.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/10/2026 17:06

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:57

❤The empirical overlap between autism and gender diversity is imv one of the most interesting questions to consider, and we don't yet seem to have a strong explanation of what is going on there.

The most likely explanation in my view is simply that those of us with an autism diagnosis, and those of us who recognise similarities in us but feel it would be a waste of people's time to find out if we meet the criteria, have always felt like 'misfits' and that those around us have an instinctive understanding of how people are supposed to behave, but it passed us by. So we don't feel we fit how we are expected to be, and in some of us this manifests in a particularly 'gendered' way. This would explain why no-one noticed any gender confusion in my son until the last few years, and why he didn't express any feeling of being a girl until he was exposed to 'gender identity' ideas.

The other things that GIDS noticed were associations with same sex attraction (something else that can make people feel like misfits) and with childhood trauma. I also observe what looks attention seeking behaviour in some trans people. Then there are those in society who spot vulnerability and exploit it by love bombing people and then keeping them under coercive control. Again, this fits what I have personally observed, where the trans person is autistic and very inexperienced in romantic or sexual relationships and therefore open to expoitation.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/10/2026 17:28

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 13:17

Affirmation here simply means recognising the reality of a child’s psychological experience, rather than continuing to dismiss, contradict or deny it when doing so is unhelpful and causing profound distress. It may involve accepting changes in dress or in the language used to address or refer to the child. Calling a child one name or pronoun is no more inherently neutral than calling them another; the same applies to the clothes they are expected or permitted to wear. None of this is irreversible medical treatment requiring a four-year-old to provide clinical informed consent. It is a responsive and revisable parenting/ relationship approach to supporting the child in the present.

Is the confusion one's relative with dementia displays something we should respond to as "the reality of their psychological experience"? In one sense, I think it is, and I wouldn't try to correct them by firmly stating the truth that their partner died 14 years ago, when they say they had lunch with them yesterday. And yet it may be necessary for them to be in a care home with restrictions on where they can go, for their own safety, and I absolutely would try to explain that, over and over again if necessary.

One's psychological experience is not always in line with reality, so "the reality of their psychological experience" may only be the reality of their confusion. In that case, is it not at least potentially cruel to reinforce that and to alter their body? I don't know for sure if it's true that there are people with dementia who have lost their trans ideation and are now distressed about their lack of male genitals, but it does seem plausible. What do we say to them?

It's far more important with children that they should be helped towards a healthy adult acceptance of their physical reality, so that they can live their life effectively. If a child is congenitally disabled, or has say Klinefelter's, it's important to their mental health that they accept their physical reality and the practical implications of their body. A girl with no fingers or thumb on one hand can't opt out of that truth; she has to learn to adapt in a world where most people have a big advantage, and it's not psychologically healthy if she hides her hand because she can't come to terms with being different. I have every sympathy with her feelings of embarrassment, but I would prefer for her to be at peace about it.

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2026 18:06

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 15:50

Agreed. I think adults and adolescents transitioning are very different things from this, and from each other. And the proof by personal incredulity fails very badly when it comes to adults. "I can't believe someone would go to that much trouble." Well I can!

But (I think) we can eliminate fear of adolescence and fetishism from being in very young children's minds in terms of what they are thinking when they say that they are the opposite sex.

Also, 'trans' appears to be a very different thing depending on the sex of the person experiencing it.

Heggettypeg · 20/10/2026 18:11

The trouble about self-defining into any group is that it's based on your perception of commonality, not theirs. The "sameness" you think you perceive may not be a sameness to them. Or to them, it may not be the defining factor. And how they see it is not automatically invalid just because you want in, and feel entitled to be included and upset if you aren't.

An example: At Arnold's favourite cafe he often sees a group of people who sit together. It's clear from their conversation that they're very interested in birds. Arnold is also very interested in birds. He thinks he and those people would have a great deal in common.

But all his attempts to pick himself in with them have been rebuffed. He puts this down to cliqueyness and social snobbery, and feels hurt and resentful.

He has rightly perceived that the group are interested in birds. They are all keen birdwatchers and some volunteer at the local RSPB reserve. They in turn are well aware that Arnold is interested in birds and don't in the least deny it.

The trouble is, they also know why, and what he is likely to do with any information they share with him. He's an egg collector.

It's not as simple as "I see you are the same as me. I know I am what you are." What they see of you and know of themselves may be quite different.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 18:19

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 16:52

That’s not my understanding of Ruble’s work. She distinguishes children’s developing identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and expectations associated with that category.

Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes.

That’s not my understanding of Ruble’s work. She distinguishes children’s developing identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and expectations associated with that category.

That's not possible. Children who have not been exposed to gender stereotypes from birth are not available to study in order to come to that conclusion. It simply isn't possible to separate the two.

Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes.

That would be a theory which, see above, would be impossible to test ethically. It would require a group of children to be brought up isolated from all gender stereotyping and knowledge of the body parts of other children and adults. Such isolation from wider society would be abusive.

It also requires the elimination of innate male and female behaviours from the study, and actually sounds as if it is confusing gender identification with sex based innate male and female behaviours.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 18:22

ArabellaScott · 20/10/2026 18:06

Also, 'trans' appears to be a very different thing depending on the sex of the person experiencing it.

And age.

The older male transitioners seem to me to be a very different group from the young males.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 20/10/2026 18:29

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 18:19

That’s not my understanding of Ruble’s work. She distinguishes children’s developing identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and expectations associated with that category.

That's not possible. Children who have not been exposed to gender stereotypes from birth are not available to study in order to come to that conclusion. It simply isn't possible to separate the two.

Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes.

That would be a theory which, see above, would be impossible to test ethically. It would require a group of children to be brought up isolated from all gender stereotyping and knowledge of the body parts of other children and adults. Such isolation from wider society would be abusive.

It also requires the elimination of innate male and female behaviours from the study, and actually sounds as if it is confusing gender identification with sex based innate male and female behaviours.

"Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes."

It also sounds like Lacksie is saying trans identified children feel the need to perform the stereotypes they associate with, and think are expected from, the sex they are identifying as.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 18:57

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 18:19

That’s not my understanding of Ruble’s work. She distinguishes children’s developing identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and expectations associated with that category.

That's not possible. Children who have not been exposed to gender stereotypes from birth are not available to study in order to come to that conclusion. It simply isn't possible to separate the two.

Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes.

That would be a theory which, see above, would be impossible to test ethically. It would require a group of children to be brought up isolated from all gender stereotyping and knowledge of the body parts of other children and adults. Such isolation from wider society would be abusive.

It also requires the elimination of innate male and female behaviours from the study, and actually sounds as if it is confusing gender identification with sex based innate male and female behaviours.

I think @Lacksie may have misunderstood her work. Interrogating AI, her main focus seems to be on positioning the child as an active agent of self-socialisation rather than a passive recipient.
She considers gender development to be a complex interaction between biology and social environments.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 19:02

CohensDiamondTeeth · 20/10/2026 18:29

"Her work draws on cognitive-developmental theories in which children’s emerging recognition of belonging to a gender category motivates them to explore its social meanings, norms and expectations. In other words, identification is understood as helping to drive the acquisition of gender stereotypes, rather than being the product of those stereotypes."

It also sounds like Lacksie is saying trans identified children feel the need to perform the stereotypes they associate with, and think are expected from, the sex they are identifying as.

It's all so circular.

I'm afraid it smacks of issues which are being explored from the start point of believing that young children can be trans and seeking theories that support that point of view.

In the absence of theories that can be tested, it feels more reasonable to me to default to the obvious.

Children are sponges, they absorb what's around them.
They are surrounded from birth, and sometimes from before birth (gender reveal parties!) by gender stereotyping.
They absorb gender stereotyping from birth.

It really doesn't need to be more complicated than that unless you are determined to believe that 4 year olds can be trans.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 19:14

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 18:57

I think @Lacksie may have misunderstood her work. Interrogating AI, her main focus seems to be on positioning the child as an active agent of self-socialisation rather than a passive recipient.
She considers gender development to be a complex interaction between biology and social environments.

That makes a great deal more sense!

In that case I completely agree.

I've always believed that there were innate sex based differences in behaviour and I get the impression that most parents who have parents both boys and girls think the same. It's incredibly difficult to remove culture from the equation to prove it, but a piece of research recently published manages it.

They took babies of for hours old and shouted then side by side images of a face and a Newton's cradle. The researchers were double blind. They did not know what the baby was looking at, the pictures were allocated left and right randomly. They did not know the sex of the babies. The result was absolutely clear. Female babies were far more interested in looking at the faces than the male babies.

So we have a soup of influences, innate sex based behaviour, physical attributes, cultural influences, gender stereotyping and parenting/caregiving in which the child is an active agent making choices.

That works for me.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 19:32

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 18:57

I think @Lacksie may have misunderstood her work. Interrogating AI, her main focus seems to be on positioning the child as an active agent of self-socialisation rather than a passive recipient.
She considers gender development to be a complex interaction between biology and social environments.

I’m really not sure what you think I’ve misunderstood here, because nothing you’ve said here contradicts what I said.

The child is an active participant in their own gender socialisation, rather than simply acquiring a gender identity through the passive internalisation of stereotypes.
Their emerging identification with a gender category helps motivate their exploration of the social meanings and expectations associated with that category.

The direction of explanation matters. It’s their emerging gender identification that motivates this exploration of stereotypes, not the acquisition of stereotypes that causes them to identify as a boy or girl in the first place.

Instead of relying on AI, perhaps read the papers.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 20:08

@Lacksie The direction of explanation matters. It’s their emerging gender identification that motivates this exploration of stereotypes, not the acquisition of stereotypes that causes them to identify as a boy or girl in the first place.

Nah, I'm not reading the papers. I just put 'What does Diane Ruble believe about where a child's intenal sense of self comes from?' into Google AI. The gender identity is formulated in toddlerhood and Ruble considers it to be due to a complex interaction between biology and the child's social environment. This gender identity then drives the child's social exploration.
If you find something in the papers that contradicts that, you can post it. I'm off to have me tea.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 20:29

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 20:08

@Lacksie The direction of explanation matters. It’s their emerging gender identification that motivates this exploration of stereotypes, not the acquisition of stereotypes that causes them to identify as a boy or girl in the first place.

Nah, I'm not reading the papers. I just put 'What does Diane Ruble believe about where a child's intenal sense of self comes from?' into Google AI. The gender identity is formulated in toddlerhood and Ruble considers it to be due to a complex interaction between biology and the child's social environment. This gender identity then drives the child's social exploration.
If you find something in the papers that contradicts that, you can post it. I'm off to have me tea.

that’s exactly what I’ve been saying! Gender identity develops through complex interactions between biological and social processes, and that emerging identification then motivates children to explore the stereotypes and social expectations associated with their gender category.

I’ve never said that social learning plays no role in gender identity. I’ve explicitly acknowledged that children acquire the language and concepts of sex and gender through social interaction. In OP's scenario- a child raised by wolves wouldn’t have the concepts of “boy” and “girl” through which to understand or describe themselves.

My argument is precisely that underlying neurobiological processes interact with social learning. The fact that we acquire the concepts socially doesn’t mean that our identification with one category rather than another is simply learned/ acquired through stereotypes.

And that’s the distinction I’m making about Ruble’s work. In the cognitive-developmental account she draws upon, GI isn't reducible to learning about gender stereotypes- children aren’t simply absorbing gender stereotypes and developing an identity as a result. Rather, as their understanding of their gender category develops, they actively seek out and explore the stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

In other words, gender identification motivates children’s exploration of stereotypes, rather than being something produced by learning those stereotypes in the first place.

JanesLittleGirl · 20/10/2026 20:46

@HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 "I'm off to have me tea." Surely you're off to put the kids to bed?

Manyanamanyana · 20/10/2026 21:23

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 08:18

What is it that you find to be "AI drivel" I will explain it to you.

Actually you promised way earlier on this thread that you were going to stop explaining things "wasting your time" I think you said but disappointingly here you still are offering to explain illogical nonsense to people who already understand enough to realise that you are speaking nonsense.

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 21:23

underlying neurobiological processes interact with social learning

So - it's not innate, after all. Just like speaking English or Hebrew isn't innate. You can't innately identify with the other sex any more than you can innately learn the "wrong" language. Whichever sex you identify with, you must have learned it. And so you can unlearn it.

Where am I going wrong?

OP posts:
nutmeg7 · 20/10/2026 21:44

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 20:29

that’s exactly what I’ve been saying! Gender identity develops through complex interactions between biological and social processes, and that emerging identification then motivates children to explore the stereotypes and social expectations associated with their gender category.

I’ve never said that social learning plays no role in gender identity. I’ve explicitly acknowledged that children acquire the language and concepts of sex and gender through social interaction. In OP's scenario- a child raised by wolves wouldn’t have the concepts of “boy” and “girl” through which to understand or describe themselves.

My argument is precisely that underlying neurobiological processes interact with social learning. The fact that we acquire the concepts socially doesn’t mean that our identification with one category rather than another is simply learned/ acquired through stereotypes.

And that’s the distinction I’m making about Ruble’s work. In the cognitive-developmental account she draws upon, GI isn't reducible to learning about gender stereotypes- children aren’t simply absorbing gender stereotypes and developing an identity as a result. Rather, as their understanding of their gender category develops, they actively seek out and explore the stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

In other words, gender identification motivates children’s exploration of stereotypes, rather than being something produced by learning those stereotypes in the first place.

You mean sex identification motivates children’s exploration of stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

eta their growing understanding of their sex category motivates the exploration of stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 22:05

nutmeg7 · 20/10/2026 21:44

You mean sex identification motivates children’s exploration of stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

eta their growing understanding of their sex category motivates the exploration of stereotypes, norms and expectations associated with it.

Edited

Yes. Sex identification. Their growing understanding/ identification with sex categories.
That is exactly what gender identity is.
For most children that identification corresponds unremarkably with their anatomy. For a very small minority of children it doesn't.

Thats life. That's diversity, that's reality.

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