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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

OP posts:
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YorkshirePuddingsGreatestFan · 20/10/2026 09:23

When my son was about five or six, he said he wanted to wear a tutu and be a ballet dancer. I just rode it out and the phase passed.

These days, he'd probably be classed as trans and be forced into feeling he must live as a girl rather than waiting to see what happens.

Children go through phases. I don't think any decision on living their life as another gender should be taken until they are older and they have more understanding of the pros and cons of changing gender.

We don't let them get tattoos, facial piercings or botox/fillers as a child as they're not mature enough to make a decision like that. I can't fathom why some think they are mature enough to change gender.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 09:32

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 08:20

I'll try again

What don't you understand about disagreement, Lacksie? I don't agree with your interpretation of how the world works. I believe it is deeply flawed and detrimental to young children.

Society creates the gender incongruence in young children. If you can't see that then it is you that is lacking in understanding, not me.

By your own argument, a boy child who says they are a girl is simply saying that they don't feel comfortable in their own body and would prefer to be treated in the way that they see children with a body of the opposite sex treated. That does not mean they are a female with male genes.

(And please, no more of the intellectual snobbery, I'll swap my professional Watson Glazer critical reasoning score with you any time you like.)

Of course I appreciate that you disagree with me. We don't yet have any scientific consensus around a single established explanation of what causes gender incongruence, so inevitably people will have different opinions.

You believe it can be explained entirely through social learning/acquisition of gender stereotypes/beliefs; I don't think we have the evidence to support that theory. Rather, the evidence that we do have cuts against that explanation.
The issue isn't disagreement. The problem is when you repeatedly make claims that your preferred explanation is the only logically conceivable possibility, e.g.:

"if you want to claim that you feel like you are one of a group of other people. You have to be able to compare and contrast yourselves with others in that group."

I was trying to show you how and why that reasoning doesn't hold.

The difficulty is that people make these kinds of assumptions all the time, but they aren't justified. Even if you disagree with my explanation of gender incongruence, you should at least be able to appreciate that it's logically possible and internally coherent as a theory. When we recognise that there is a range of possible explanations, that moves us from simply assuming our single perspective must be correct towards a position where we need instead to look at the body of evidence and consider which of the different possible interpretations best explains what we actually see.

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 09:36

@Lacksie are you autistic yourself? You said are "well informed" about this subject for "other" reasons (although you don't appear to be able or willing to answer any of the questions I ask about what you post in order to understand more about your view). You have said in other threads that you are not trans, have no "trans" children or family members so in what capacity are you "well informed" - Work?Friends?Activist groups?
Someone who disregards the Cass report, disregards the findings of notable studies such as the Finnish report and yet is looking forwards to the outcomes of the Pathways trial is perplexing to me.
I struggle to see how anybody with children can advocate for children and YP to be given puberty blockers, hormonal treatments and surgery when we have the option of developing psychological services to support both child and family and taking a "watch and wait" type approach that allows that child to see if their distress resolves by maturity without causing themselves actual bodily harm.
As I said in a previous post that you failed to respond to,of the Tavistock patients, 35% had an ASD diagnosis, 25% had spent time in care and children referred were 10x more likely than the general population to have a registered sex offender as a parent - we absolutely cannot ignore stats such as these because they point to complexity that needs exploring in a safe space with knowlegeable clinicians who aren't motivated by an ideological,non evidenced belief in affirmation. If you have an ASD child you should be more engaged with this aspect surely?!

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 09:37

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 09:32

Of course I appreciate that you disagree with me. We don't yet have any scientific consensus around a single established explanation of what causes gender incongruence, so inevitably people will have different opinions.

You believe it can be explained entirely through social learning/acquisition of gender stereotypes/beliefs; I don't think we have the evidence to support that theory. Rather, the evidence that we do have cuts against that explanation.
The issue isn't disagreement. The problem is when you repeatedly make claims that your preferred explanation is the only logically conceivable possibility, e.g.:

"if you want to claim that you feel like you are one of a group of other people. You have to be able to compare and contrast yourselves with others in that group."

I was trying to show you how and why that reasoning doesn't hold.

The difficulty is that people make these kinds of assumptions all the time, but they aren't justified. Even if you disagree with my explanation of gender incongruence, you should at least be able to appreciate that it's logically possible and internally coherent as a theory. When we recognise that there is a range of possible explanations, that moves us from simply assuming our single perspective must be correct towards a position where we need instead to look at the body of evidence and consider which of the different possible interpretations best explains what we actually see.

My reasoning does hold.

You are one of those people who think if they repeat something often enough that they can make people agree with them.

You are wrong about that, and your reasoning is incoherent.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 09:40

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:39

Ok I am out with laxy. It is all getting ridiculous now. Several children, one GDD autistic and non verbal. Expert in legal speak over on the Sandie Peggie tribunal. Expert on gender and child rearing over here. Expert on intellectual highbrow conversation and the fact MN is low brow.

When do you get time to actually do family stuff.

Anyway - will watch in amusement but that is me out. Sorry my intellect was sub par @Lacksie

An interesting number of recent comments about children and parenting after observations about extreme tras rarely being parents, hence their willingness to view children as suitable to experiment on.

Posted at a time when most parents are normally in the trenches of breakfast / morning / pre school routines.

Revealing patterns as usual.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:07

@Lacksie Even if you disagree with my explanation of gender incongruence, you should at least be able to appreciate that it's logically possible and internally coherent as a theory.

I don't recall you posting any evidence for your theory (peer-reviewed, statistically significant, unconfounded). It's no good saying that gender incongruence can't be due to social factors, because it is not possible to find a 4 year-old child who has not been exposed to social factors. Your theory boils down to a child insisting that they have the wrong genitals, and anyone involved in safeguarding children knows that a child focussing on genitals is a child that has possibly been abused in some way.

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 10:07

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 05:26

You do if you want to claim that you feel like you are one of a group of other people. You have to be able to compare and contrast yourselves with others in that group.

I'll try again.

You’re trying to appeal to a rule that someone must satisfy to make a meaningful or truthful claim about themselves:
"you can’t claim to be a girl unless you know what being a girl feels like."

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience. There's no use telling them they can't say this because it doesn't make sense- it's the reality of what is happening in their brain.

Consider a child who says, “I’m hurting.” You wouldn’t respond that they can’t claim to be in pain unless they know what pain feels like to other children. You recognise that they’re communicating something they are directly experiencing/ feeling.

Of course, the child needs to acquire the language and concepts necessary to identify and communicate that experience as “pain”. But acquiring those concepts doesn’t require access to anyone else’s subjective experience of pain. Indeed, such access is impossible.

The same distinction matters here. A child needs to acquire the concepts of “boy” and “girl” to articulate their experience of gender, but it doesn’t follow that the experience itself is derived from comparing their subjective feelings with those of other people, or that they must know what being a girl feels like.

The child might experience a persistent sense that they are a girl, that being regarded as a boy feels wrong, or that being recognised as a girl feels right. They can describe these experiences using concepts acquired through social interaction without having any
concept of what being a girl is supposed to feel like, or what it feels like for other girls.

If a boy is insisting that he is a girl, what meaning is he attaching to the word "girl"?

You can't know what he means by the statement "I'm a girl" unless you know what he thinks the word "girl" means.

Helleofabore · 20/10/2026 10:08

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/10/2026 09:40

An interesting number of recent comments about children and parenting after observations about extreme tras rarely being parents, hence their willingness to view children as suitable to experiment on.

Posted at a time when most parents are normally in the trenches of breakfast / morning / pre school routines.

Revealing patterns as usual.

indeed.

The lack of understanding / dismissal of safeguarding principles is most concerning.

Helleofabore · 20/10/2026 10:13

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:07

@Lacksie Even if you disagree with my explanation of gender incongruence, you should at least be able to appreciate that it's logically possible and internally coherent as a theory.

I don't recall you posting any evidence for your theory (peer-reviewed, statistically significant, unconfounded). It's no good saying that gender incongruence can't be due to social factors, because it is not possible to find a 4 year-old child who has not been exposed to social factors. Your theory boils down to a child insisting that they have the wrong genitals, and anyone involved in safeguarding children knows that a child focussing on genitals is a child that has possibly been abused in some way.

If there was any evidence since the Cass report and the USA review it would be widely publicised.

There is not.

There is theoretical discussion but it is being presented as coherent and with authority backed by claims of being ‘informed’. This has been a pattern over the years and it is repeated with different usernames over that time. It is a common enough soundbite by activists on social media.

But there really seems to be a misuse of common terms where posters have their own meanings for words. Including ‘discussion’ and ‘coherence’.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:25

Helleofabore · 20/10/2026 10:13

If there was any evidence since the Cass report and the USA review it would be widely publicised.

There is not.

There is theoretical discussion but it is being presented as coherent and with authority backed by claims of being ‘informed’. This has been a pattern over the years and it is repeated with different usernames over that time. It is a common enough soundbite by activists on social media.

But there really seems to be a misuse of common terms where posters have their own meanings for words. Including ‘discussion’ and ‘coherence’.

Yes, I remember the 'gotta put the kids to bed' from my first iteration as Henrietta. It is so insulting to women everywhere to think that if you chuck in a supposed bed-time routine we are all going to consider you an expert on child development. However, the TRA movement is built on insulting women and using children so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:34

OldCrone · 20/10/2026 10:07

If a boy is insisting that he is a girl, what meaning is he attaching to the word "girl"?

You can't know what he means by the statement "I'm a girl" unless you know what he thinks the word "girl" means.

Hey @Lacksie , have you got an answer to this reasonable question?

Mamma283839 · 20/10/2026 10:50

Really interesting questions. I have an 10yo autistic child - no learning disabilities but learning and language is very delayed for a lots of reasons. He has a little sister. He doesn’t remember to use she and her, boy and girl. I’ve tried lots of times to explain biological differences between boys and girls, hard to say if it’s going in. I don’t think he distinguishes between boys and girls. I think his environment has not made that influence on his preference or beliefs - he seems independent of all that. I’m not quite sure what I’m saying, just that he comes across as
someone who says he is a boy only because I’ve told him he is, but I don’t know if he has any innate feelings that makes him feel different from girls - he hasn’t ever indicated that. That may well change as he gets older of course.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:54

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:34

Hey @Lacksie , have you got an answer to this reasonable question?

I'm a little bit tired of the personal attacks. Will return to this question later if I feel resilient enough to do so.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:55

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:54

I'm a little bit tired of the personal attacks. Will return to this question later if I feel resilient enough to do so.

Edited

Bless

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:57

Mamma283839 · 20/10/2026 10:50

Really interesting questions. I have an 10yo autistic child - no learning disabilities but learning and language is very delayed for a lots of reasons. He has a little sister. He doesn’t remember to use she and her, boy and girl. I’ve tried lots of times to explain biological differences between boys and girls, hard to say if it’s going in. I don’t think he distinguishes between boys and girls. I think his environment has not made that influence on his preference or beliefs - he seems independent of all that. I’m not quite sure what I’m saying, just that he comes across as
someone who says he is a boy only because I’ve told him he is, but I don’t know if he has any innate feelings that makes him feel different from girls - he hasn’t ever indicated that. That may well change as he gets older of course.

❤The empirical overlap between autism and gender diversity is imv one of the most interesting questions to consider, and we don't yet seem to have a strong explanation of what is going on there.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 11:16

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:57

❤The empirical overlap between autism and gender diversity is imv one of the most interesting questions to consider, and we don't yet seem to have a strong explanation of what is going on there.

Are you reading widely enough, Lacksie?

Psychology certainly does have a coherent explanation why people who feel out of place in the world seek solutions to those feelings.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 11:26

I'm out for lunch and then sleeping off my chilli and chips but I've been digging into what the effects of having two X chromosomes is and it is wider than I thought.

I've also got some comments on research into sex based behaviour in socially unconditioned babies of 4 hours old and what that might mean.

Lacksie, you have had your views challenged in a debate you chose to engage in. You have not been attacked. Though I do understand that you may feel that you have.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 11:34

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 11:26

I'm out for lunch and then sleeping off my chilli and chips but I've been digging into what the effects of having two X chromosomes is and it is wider than I thought.

I've also got some comments on research into sex based behaviour in socially unconditioned babies of 4 hours old and what that might mean.

Lacksie, you have had your views challenged in a debate you chose to engage in. You have not been attacked. Though I do understand that you may feel that you have.

I don't have any problem with having my views challenged and welcome debate.
It's the personal comments that wears one down. but such is social media.

Zbcdeg · 20/10/2026 11:55

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 10:57

❤The empirical overlap between autism and gender diversity is imv one of the most interesting questions to consider, and we don't yet seem to have a strong explanation of what is going on there.

Ahh you have responded to someone and are acknowledging a fairly crucial fact ……so if “transness” is over represented in the autistic community ( present in over 1/3 of the Tavistock patient group ) do we
a. Explore this and asks questions as to why
b. Proceed without questions to puberty blockers, hormonal treatment and surgery whilst simultaneously failing to consider other factors ,fully assess their needs ,keep adequate records and follow up patient outcomes?

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 12:13

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 05:26

You do if you want to claim that you feel like you are one of a group of other people. You have to be able to compare and contrast yourselves with others in that group.

I'll try again.

You’re trying to appeal to a rule that someone must satisfy to make a meaningful or truthful claim about themselves:
"you can’t claim to be a girl unless you know what being a girl feels like."

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience. There's no use telling them they can't say this because it doesn't make sense- it's the reality of what is happening in their brain.

Consider a child who says, “I’m hurting.” You wouldn’t respond that they can’t claim to be in pain unless they know what pain feels like to other children. You recognise that they’re communicating something they are directly experiencing/ feeling.

Of course, the child needs to acquire the language and concepts necessary to identify and communicate that experience as “pain”. But acquiring those concepts doesn’t require access to anyone else’s subjective experience of pain. Indeed, such access is impossible.

The same distinction matters here. A child needs to acquire the concepts of “boy” and “girl” to articulate their experience of gender, but it doesn’t follow that the experience itself is derived from comparing their subjective feelings with those of other people, or that they must know what being a girl feels like.

The child might experience a persistent sense that they are a girl, that being regarded as a boy feels wrong, or that being recognised as a girl feels right. They can describe these experiences using concepts acquired through social interaction without having any
concept of what being a girl is supposed to feel like, or what it feels like for other girls.

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience.

Of course you can make the claim to be a girl even if you’ve no idea what a girl is; but you’ve no right to be taken seriously.

“I’m a girl”
”what’s a girl?”
”girls all get to be rich and I want to be rich”
“Ah well in that case, you are Indeed a girl after all. Have some new pronouns and these smarties are wonderful.“

OP posts:
BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 12:19

What do we do when girls identify as princesses? Affirm them?

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:33

MyAmpleSheep · 20/10/2026 12:13

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience.

Of course you can make the claim to be a girl even if you’ve no idea what a girl is; but you’ve no right to be taken seriously.

“I’m a girl”
”what’s a girl?”
”girls all get to be rich and I want to be rich”
“Ah well in that case, you are Indeed a girl after all. Have some new pronouns and these smarties are wonderful.“

You're both misrepresenting and trivialising a child's experience of a very real and often very painful psychological condition.

“Having a right to be taken seriously” is neither here nor there, and fails to engage with the seriousness of the issue. At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

Veilsofmorning · 20/10/2026 12:37

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 20/10/2026 10:34

Hey @Lacksie , have you got an answer to this reasonable question?

You won’t get one, because it goes back to my issue, also unanswered, that children do not develop true abstract thinking until about 12 years old.

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 12:42

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 12:33

You're both misrepresenting and trivialising a child's experience of a very real and often very painful psychological condition.

“Having a right to be taken seriously” is neither here nor there, and fails to engage with the seriousness of the issue. At the end of the day, these are children in clinically significant distress. They deserve evidence-based support, not dismissal and ridicule by adults who are more concerned with defending their own prejudices than responding to a child’s distress and need for support.

So if a boy says he’s a girl we should take him seriously, but if he says he’s a dinosaur we should tell him he’s not. Why? He has just as much knowledge and experience of being a girl as he does of being a dinosaur….

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