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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

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PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 06:56

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 06:29

Sometimes the word NO is enough

😂. ok dear.
I have a child with GDD and autism, Maybe I should try shouting "NO" at her. hopefully that will make her brain work differently . 🙏🏻🤞🏻🫩

What do you do? Genuine question as I often hear that these children with gender identity issues are also autistic, so how do you navigate these quite complex discussions without causing upset?

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:03

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 06:56

What do you do? Genuine question as I often hear that these children with gender identity issues are also autistic, so how do you navigate these quite complex discussions without causing upset?

Well worded question @PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk

If this thread reflects others laxy is on - as a legal expert over on SP thread for example - no real answers are forthcoming.

The rise in girls being diagnosed with autism is interesting https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/why-more-women-are-being-diagnosed-autism-later-life

We are also most definitely in an era where every human trait is labelled. I am not so sure that is helpful. I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. I do not need to proclaim them daily.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/why-more-women-are-being-diagnosed-autism-later-life

HousePlantEmergency · 20/10/2026 07:08

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 06:29

Sometimes the word NO is enough

😂. ok dear.
I have a child with GDD and autism, Maybe I should try shouting "NO" at her. hopefully that will make her brain work differently . 🙏🏻🤞🏻🫩

Yes you absolutely can tell an autistic child "No". It's is sometimes essential to keep a child safe. I have to tell the 9 autistic children in my class "No" several times a day, in one form or another. Through words, signing, visuals or actions.
There's no shouting though. Not sure why you assumed anyone would be shouting at children.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:18

HousePlantEmergency · 20/10/2026 07:08

Yes you absolutely can tell an autistic child "No". It's is sometimes essential to keep a child safe. I have to tell the 9 autistic children in my class "No" several times a day, in one form or another. Through words, signing, visuals or actions.
There's no shouting though. Not sure why you assumed anyone would be shouting at children.

I wasn't suggesting you can't tell an autistic child "no".

I was pointing out that saying "no" doesn't make a persons brain work differently.

Telling my daughter "no" won't cure her GDD or make her less autistic.

Telling a child with gender incongruence "no" won't make their brain work differently, cure their incongruence, or resolve their distress.

It was an entirely facile suggestion, but reflective of the quality of thought/ discussion on these boards.

HousePlantEmergency · 20/10/2026 07:26

I didn't say it would make anyones brain work differently! I said sometimes using No is necessary. Whether the child understands why or not. It's safeguarding.
Like the boy in my class who likes to take all of his clothes off. He likes it, it feels good to him, but we have to tell him no. Because we would be failing to prepare him for adulthood and how to function in society. He doesn't understand "why" he shouldn't do it (yet - and he may never) but we don't allow him to just keep stripping off regardless.

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:27

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:18

I wasn't suggesting you can't tell an autistic child "no".

I was pointing out that saying "no" doesn't make a persons brain work differently.

Telling my daughter "no" won't cure her GDD or make her less autistic.

Telling a child with gender incongruence "no" won't make their brain work differently, cure their incongruence, or resolve their distress.

It was an entirely facile suggestion, but reflective of the quality of thought/ discussion on these boards.

It was an entirely facile suggestion, but reflective of the quality of thought/ discussion on these boards.

Then why spend 24/7 on them? You are aware this is Mumsnet not an intellectual forum just normal people sounding off?

If we are not up to your level of intellect perhaps MN isn’t the platform for you. I am not on many threads but of the few I am on you appear as a legal expert in the SP tribunal case, an expert in gender studies and now a parenting expert. When asked any questions your general response is ‘kids are home/school run/work presentation to prepare/meal to cook.

StealthTroublemaker · 20/10/2026 07:28

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:27

It was an entirely facile suggestion, but reflective of the quality of thought/ discussion on these boards.

Then why spend 24/7 on them? You are aware this is Mumsnet not an intellectual forum just normal people sounding off?

If we are not up to your level of intellect perhaps MN isn’t the platform for you. I am not on many threads but of the few I am on you appear as a legal expert in the SP tribunal case, an expert in gender studies and now a parenting expert. When asked any questions your general response is ‘kids are home/school run/work presentation to prepare/meal to cook.

Edited

Maybe Reddit or bluesky would be better for @Lacksie. I hear they’ve very intellectual over there…..

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:29

HousePlantEmergency · 20/10/2026 07:26

I didn't say it would make anyones brain work differently! I said sometimes using No is necessary. Whether the child understands why or not. It's safeguarding.
Like the boy in my class who likes to take all of his clothes off. He likes it, it feels good to him, but we have to tell him no. Because we would be failing to prepare him for adulthood and how to function in society. He doesn't understand "why" he shouldn't do it (yet - and he may never) but we don't allow him to just keep stripping off regardless.

Well said. At some point in the past few decades saying no to children and adults seems to have become unfair.

We all need to understand what no means. Including the men in dresses so desperate to invade women’s spaces. No doubt laxy will school me on why I should acquiesce to these misunderstood souls.🙄

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:31

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:18

I wasn't suggesting you can't tell an autistic child "no".

I was pointing out that saying "no" doesn't make a persons brain work differently.

Telling my daughter "no" won't cure her GDD or make her less autistic.

Telling a child with gender incongruence "no" won't make their brain work differently, cure their incongruence, or resolve their distress.

It was an entirely facile suggestion, but reflective of the quality of thought/ discussion on these boards.

I understand you feel "no" isn't appropriate, so what do you say to your daughter? Surely telling a child "yes" is equally as challenging given the outside world will largely say "no"? So I assume there are deeper discussions going on can you give some insight into how you navigate them?

I have no skin in this game, I'd just like to understand.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:34

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:31

I understand you feel "no" isn't appropriate, so what do you say to your daughter? Surely telling a child "yes" is equally as challenging given the outside world will largely say "no"? So I assume there are deeper discussions going on can you give some insight into how you navigate them?

I have no skin in this game, I'd just like to understand.

I don't understand the question? Is it that you are assuming my child has gender incongruence? She doesn't- well not yet anyway she's too young for that- she doesn't yet have any concept of gender (as far as I can tell). Especially given her GDD. Shes nonverbal.

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:35

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:34

I don't understand the question? Is it that you are assuming my child has gender incongruence? She doesn't- well not yet anyway she's too young for that- she doesn't yet have any concept of gender (as far as I can tell). Especially given her GDD. Shes nonverbal.

Edited

So this child isn’t the daughter you quoted further up thread who you asked if she was a girl? Different child?

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:35

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:35

So this child isn’t the daughter you quoted further up thread who you asked if she was a girl? Different child?

Edited

Yes I have several children.

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:37

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:34

I don't understand the question? Is it that you are assuming my child has gender incongruence? She doesn't- well not yet anyway she's too young for that- she doesn't yet have any concept of gender (as far as I can tell). Especially given her GDD. Shes nonverbal.

Edited

The child who you said has GD, what do you say to her?

Edit: Apologies, I misread the GDD as GD.

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:38

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:37

The child who you said has GD, what do you say to her?

Edit: Apologies, I misread the GDD as GD.

Edited

What do you mean what do I say to her? About what?

CohensDiamondTeeth · 20/10/2026 07:39

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:37

The child who you said has GD, what do you say to her?

Edit: Apologies, I misread the GDD as GD.

Edited

I'm assuming that Lacksie means Global Developmental Delay.

I think the lack of transparency over what Lacksie meant when using that acronym was intentional. It makes it easier to eek out responses because of the subsequent confusion, which IMO was easily predictable.

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:39

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:38

What do you mean what do I say to her? About what?

I misread GDD as GD. Apologies.

I was interested to understand how that is approached by parents of autistic children.

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 07:39

Ok I am out with laxy. It is all getting ridiculous now. Several children, one GDD autistic and non verbal. Expert in legal speak over on the Sandie Peggie tribunal. Expert on gender and child rearing over here. Expert on intellectual highbrow conversation and the fact MN is low brow.

When do you get time to actually do family stuff.

Anyway - will watch in amusement but that is me out. Sorry my intellect was sub par @Lacksie

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 07:44

PlinketyplonkSlinketyslonk · 20/10/2026 07:37

The child who you said has GD, what do you say to her?

Edit: Apologies, I misread the GDD as GD.

Edited

Oh sorry I can see how that was confusing. Yes I meant global developmental delay and autism. I have several children. The youngest has SEND (GDD+autism)
I don't have a child with gender dysphoria, but it's a subject I am very well informed about for other reasons.
@BlueLegume seems to find this suspicious I don't know why,

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 08:03

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 05:59

That seems logical right?
But the problem is it assumes there is a "why" that can be identified and changed.

what you prescribe an adult should do is exactly what the vast majority of loving parents do- they really really try to do. The problem is when that doesn't work.

"Why do you feel it?"

"I just do. Because I am. My body feels it".

The parent keeps insisting-" the reality is you are are boy, you can be or do anything you want as a boy, but you are a boy".

And the more the parent insists, the more desperate and upset and confused the child becomes.

Eventually many loving parents, faced with this situation , come to a realisation- they can continue to deny and contradict what their child is telling them, and have a child who is deeply distressed and unhappy.,
Or they can change their way of thinking and find a way to accept/ accommodate and work with what their child is telling them.
Prior to puberty, this involves no more than changing the words used to address and refer to them, and letting them dress how they like (the latter parents are typically willing to do anyway).

And in the end, this is what many loving parents do. and when they do so, many also find that their child's distress dissipates and everyone can just move on as you say with normal life. suddenly they can talk with their child about what they learned at school, and playing football, and why do fish swim and all the normal conversations you have with a child, instead of the endless and fraught arguments about their gender.

The question is why the child gets so upset about being called a boy when they are a boy.

You think it's because they were born a boy in a girl's body.

I think it's because from somewhere, that boy picked up micro suggestions that they would not be loved and valued and nurtured as a boy, but they would be as a girl.

Those micro signals may have come from those close to them, there is documentation of mothers who dislike children of a particular sex. Or it may be socials micro signals that a girl is more accepted than a a boy who likes behaving like a girl. There are still people telling young children "big boys don't cry."

Those children are made by the adults and the society around them. They are not born in the wrong body.

Manyanamanyana · 20/10/2026 08:11

Lacksie · 18/10/2026 22:37

Your thought experiment doesn’t drive a coach and horses through anything. human development involves complex interactions between biological processes and social experience. Language is an obvious example. A child raised without human contact wouldn’t develop language normally. Does that mean our capacity for language isn’t innate, or that language is simply a social construct? Of course not.

You’re also presenting a false dichotomy between biological and social phenomena, as though something influenced by social experience cannot have a biological basis. That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of human development.

Finally, even if you could establish that gender incongruence was entirely socially determined, which you haven’t, that wouldn’t in itself tell us whether pharmacological interventions were appropriate. That question requires evidence about their effectiveness, risks and benefits, not assumptions about whether the underlying phenomenon is biological or social

I haven’t suggested that understanding aetiology is unimportant to medical research. However, understanding of a condition’s aetiology isn’t a prerequisite for providing effective treatment.

AI drivel

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 08:18

Manyanamanyana · 20/10/2026 08:11

AI drivel

What is it that you find to be "AI drivel" I will explain it to you.

Imdunfer · 20/10/2026 08:20

Lacksie · 20/10/2026 05:26

You do if you want to claim that you feel like you are one of a group of other people. You have to be able to compare and contrast yourselves with others in that group.

I'll try again.

You’re trying to appeal to a rule that someone must satisfy to make a meaningful or truthful claim about themselves:
"you can’t claim to be a girl unless you know what being a girl feels like."

But what you’re still failing to grasp is that when a gender-incongruent child says “I am a girl”, they aren’t making a philosophical claim about what it means to be a girl, they are simply describing the reality of their own subjective psychological experience. There's no use telling them they can't say this because it doesn't make sense- it's the reality of what is happening in their brain.

Consider a child who says, “I’m hurting.” You wouldn’t respond that they can’t claim to be in pain unless they know what pain feels like to other children. You recognise that they’re communicating something they are directly experiencing/ feeling.

Of course, the child needs to acquire the language and concepts necessary to identify and communicate that experience as “pain”. But acquiring those concepts doesn’t require access to anyone else’s subjective experience of pain. Indeed, such access is impossible.

The same distinction matters here. A child needs to acquire the concepts of “boy” and “girl” to articulate their experience of gender, but it doesn’t follow that the experience itself is derived from comparing their subjective feelings with those of other people, or that they must know what being a girl feels like.

The child might experience a persistent sense that they are a girl, that being regarded as a boy feels wrong, or that being recognised as a girl feels right. They can describe these experiences using concepts acquired through social interaction without having any
concept of what being a girl is supposed to feel like, or what it feels like for other girls.

I'll try again

What don't you understand about disagreement, Lacksie? I don't agree with your interpretation of how the world works. I believe it is deeply flawed and detrimental to young children.

Society creates the gender incongruence in young children. If you can't see that then it is you that is lacking in understanding, not me.

By your own argument, a boy child who says they are a girl is simply saying that they don't feel comfortable in their own body and would prefer to be treated in the way that they see children with a body of the opposite sex treated. That does not mean they are a female with male genes.

(And please, no more of the intellectual snobbery, I'll swap my professional Watson Glazer critical reasoning score with you any time you like.)

Mountainlarch · 20/10/2026 08:38

Social transition of young children is a very recent concept. When the Dutch started experimenting with puberty blockers, they advised against social transition, as they knew that for most of the children the gender distress would disappear with time. If I remember correctly, one of the systematic reviews commissioned by Dr. Cass was about social transition, and found no benefits. I will try to find it later.

BaffledAndBemusedToo · 20/10/2026 08:48

Wehadabetamax · 18/10/2026 19:20

Maybe she noticed how you viewed women and wanted to be a boy to please you.

This. This. This.

DramaAndBullshit · 20/10/2026 08:57

BlueLegume · 20/10/2026 06:24

Affirming a delusion is not good parenting. It definitely is not loving parenting. Gentle parenting is not good parenting.

Sometimes the word NO is enough.

Edited

Don’t mix Gentle Parenting in with this. Gentle Parenting is good parenting, it teaches boundaries whilst maintaining respect and autonomy. It doesn’t mean no rules, or allowing children to do anything they like.

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