The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

We're no where near any place of finding a cure, so is there really a meaningful debate about this?

Regardless, it assume it would be very similar to debates about curing e.g. autism. People will have a range of opinions and that will be affected partly by their own experience, as well as their broader attitudes towards disability/ difference etc.

Some people will say, why not cure this thing if it causes suffering, others will say, this is fundamental aspect of who a person is, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, with the right support a person can live a happy, fulfilling life, etc etc.

That's not the case. It's possible to describe dysphoria without reference to stereotypes. Many accounts will include reference to stereotypes because how we understand the social categories 'male' and 'female' are infused with them. That's the society we live in. But that doesn't mean it's not possible to describe dysphoria without them. There were no stereotypes in the description I just offered you.

A pp described their experience of dysphoria very vividly a few pages back - there were no stereotypes included.

Also possible the evidence is out there, but almost all the gender clinics refused to release it to Cass.

I wonder why.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68786030

'....the health secretary also called for adult gender clinics to share data on the patients they have who were given gender treatment as children.
The publication of Dr Cass's report revealed that six of seven adult clinics had refused to take part in the study - meaning that the outcomes for approximately 9,000 people who were moved from child services into adult care were not included in the report.
Dr Cass said this was "hugely disappointing" as these people's experiences would be valuable in studying the long-term impacts of hormone treatments.'

'former health secretary Sajid Javid called for "a no holds barred government investigation" into obstruction of the research.
Mr Javid introduced legislation in 2022 which allowed the Cass review access to some medical records.
"Despite it being the unanimous will of Parliament, it is clear vested interests have deliberately frustrated the important data access legislation I brought forward to support Dr Cass's review," he said.
"A no holds barred government investigation should be launched into this obfuscation, documents retrieved and, if necessary, individuals held accountable for failing to provide records."'

'Labour's shadow health minister Wes Streeting also expressed anger that some clinics had refused to take part in research.
Speaking more widely to the Sun's Never Mind the Ballots show, Mr Streeting was asked whether he believed trans women were women, and he said he was newly recognising "complexities" in transgender identities.
"If you'd asked me a few years ago... I would have said trans men are men, trans women are women. Some people are trans, get over it, let's move on, this is all blown out of proportion," he told the paper's politics show.
"And now I sort of sit and reflect and think actually, there are lots of complexities," he concluded, adding that he recognises that "ugly rhetoric" is directed towards trans people.
Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has also responded to the review, saying the findings "shine a spotlight" on the need to "exercise extreme caution" when it comes to gender care for children.'

The clinics cited 'political' reasons for not releasing the data. But it looks to me like any politician that actually looked into the issue had pretty firm understanding that the clincs should have released data in the interests of helping existing and future patients. Politicians from across the political spectrum.

It's possible to describe being unhappy with your own body that way but it is not possible to describe believing that you are the opposite sex to the one you were born.

Some people will say, why not cure this thing if it causes suffering

And usually they aren't vilified or accused of conversion therapy and their research is not suppressed. (See again link to Guardian article above on WPATH).

Generally we tend to look for other solutions before making somebody into a life long medical patient and rendering them infertile.

So it seems you believe it's a condition similar to body integrity identity disorder (BIID).

Body Integrity Identity Disorder | PLOS One

This raises the obvious question of why the treatments are so different. Someone who thinks one of their limbs shouldn't be there is treated differently from someone who thinks their body should be that of the opposite sex. This is an interesting article about this condition, which also points to the similarities with what they call gender-identity disorder.

A New Way to Be Mad - The Atlantic

I find it useful to know where people are coming from in trans issues. Since you aren't trans yourself, @Lacksie do you simply have a theoretical/academic interest in trans issues, or are you supporting a close relative or friend who is trans?

of course it is. A pp did it earlier. It was clear what she was describing was gender incongruence/ dysphoria. It didn't contain any gender stereotypes.

The clinics cited 'political' reasons for not releasing the data.

It's almost as though the aim is not to cure a psychological condition.

Where? I don't have time to read back through 14 pages and I don't believe it's possible to describe feeling as if you are the opposite sex without describing body or gender stereotyping of what it means to be female.

Unless you are referring to the people who say "I feel like a woman" without being able to describe what that means. Which is completely meaningless because nobody but a woman knows what it feels like to feel like a woman and she she only knows what it feels like to feel like herself.

The people promoting this treatment aren't talking about helping someone to live a happy, fulfilling life as the sex they are. They're talking about sterilising them (as children!) and turning them into someone who is one sex but looks like the other, making all their interactions in society very difficult for their entire lives.

Surely a cure would be better for them?

A linguistic debate would be a debate about the correct or appropriate structure, usage and meaning of words and terms. Puberty has a pretty fixed set of meanings and implications.

It's not meaningless at all. They are telling you their experience. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it meaningless.

This was what a pp said earlier. It's very clear she is describing gender incongruence. There are no gender stereotypes required to communicate what she is experiencing and for us to identify it as being gender incongruence.

"i kept a razor blade for when I could work out how to correct my body without killing myslef / making my mother furious at the mess / working out how to stitch up the holes
I am always male when I dream
when the indians at work called me Peter not Petra ( names changed obviously) I didn’t correct them - I liked it , when email correspondents assumed I am
male I don’t correct - it makes me feel good."

Firts of all you need to understand what 'gender incongruence' is; from where, and how it arises. You cannot just make a priori assumptions about what it is.
Your base assumptions will shape how you move forward and how you 'treat' it.

The evidence is that most young people grow out of their dysphoric feelings after puberty. The evidence also suggest that many young people suffering from dysphoria turn out, after puberty, to be gay or lesbian. This was evidenced by practitioners working at the Tavistock clinic. It was also evidenced that 'transition' does not significantly resolve distress in the longer term - and in many instances increases it.

There was also this conversation string

A previous poster: Though it is fair to say that the experience varies with the telling.

You: Actually there's a remarkable degree of consistency.

The PP you are now referencing: Consistency in being exposed to strong gender stereotypes (my emphasis)

To which you replied "incorrect". Talking over someone you acknowledge sounds very much like they experienced gender incongruence when they suggest that (within the group of dysphoric youth) there is a consistent pattern of exposure to strong gender stereotypes.

Equating being called Peter with being a man is gender stereotyping, and you have just confirmed that nobody can describe feeling that they are the opposite sex to the one they were born without reference to body and gender stereotyping or claiming to "feel like" the opposite sex when they have no way of knowing how that actually feels.

It makes a woman in a patriarchal working situation feel good to be mistaken for a male when they write? I know that feeling well. It is not a description of being born in a body of the wrong sex.

I really am interested in knowing why you are so invested in this when you are not trans. I'm invested in it because I'm a non typical female determined not to be dragged back into the past definitions of female-ness by men who want to believe they are women.

This pp also said

i think you are missing the key point about how normalisation of “treatment “ has affected how people approach their problems and made it harder for them to take a none medical route

when we can see many people have previously lived well without treatment, when we can see that the promise of treatment has a mental impact that makes it harder for people to manage without it , we should think very carefully indeed about normalising this

No, this "evidence" is outdated and discredited.

The central problems are the samples and the follow-up. Some studies included children referred for gender non-conforming behaviour who did not meet the full diagnostic criteria. Being gender non-conforming is not the same as having gender dysphoria.

In some studies, children who did not return to the clinic were counted as having “desisted”, without establishing that their dysphoria had actually resolved. Not returning to a service is not the same as growing out of a condition.

Those central limitations - among others - seriously undermine any conclusions we can draw from these studies.

The PATHWAYS trial will hopefully provide much clearer evidence on this. Especially if long term follow up occurs as is currently anticipated.

Most people here are happy to repeat their points, and have done so many times over the years. I'm not sure why you should find it uniquely tiresome? Lack of response just makes it seem like you are engaging in evasion because you cannot simply explain your point or illustrate it. Wouldn't it be quicker just to give a few sentences of explanation rather than continually having to bat away requests? That is how discussion and debate work.

There is nothing being said here that has not been said before...but here you are, and here we are .....

Gender Incongruence describes being/feeling deeply incongruent with what you think is expected of you or what is considered 'normal'

It is not normal practice for a patient to determine the clinical pathway that clinicians deliver. There are standards of care and established pathways.