The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

All we have is evidence on what happens to children’s brains when they are given PBs for a short period for CPP.

And some limited evidence from children with gender dysphoria.

Two of these studies looked at the effects in children with precocious puberty and three looked at the effects in children who had been prescribed puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. Of these five studies, three reported lower IQs in patients treated with puberty blockers, with 2 reporting a drop in IQ in some patients following the administration of the drug, and 1 a lower IQ compared with controls.

Puberty blockers and teenage brain development – Clinical Advisory Network on Sex and Gender

Many mental issues don't typically get resolved, in the sense of cured, through psychological therapy. They are often relieved, or the person is helped with coping strategies. For example, now that I'm aware of "Negative Automatic Thoughts" I can recognise them for what they are, and some of their power to disable my functioning is removed. I still have them, but they don't impact my life as much. The same is true with gender issues. I know someone, transgender, who has not been put on hormone treatment because of physical contra-indications, but whose mental health has improved very considerably; not cured, but currently coping quite well.

We have evidence that PBs are not needed and that historic outcomes are better than current ones

we have evidence that they have a negative impact on bone health

there is clearly some concerns - some evidence although I don’t know at what level of strength - about brain health also

How much evidence is needed ?

In terms of why girls think they are boys and vice versa, unfortunately, for Lackie's theory of a yet undiscovered scientific condition, we have a whole bunch of people who tell us.

From de-transitioners, to parents, to entire clinical teams at the Tavistock and men who assert it's all down to porn.

People that TRAs like Lacksie seem to forget about entirely.

The head of Mermaids, rather bizarrely, feeling entirely confident in saying that her husband was a homophobe sternly telling his son that he was acting like a girl.

WPATHs own admission that is all based on opinion. The DSM, which, if I remember correctly, use stereotypes as criteria.

And the post upthread by transparent, unwittingly absolutely riddled with stereotypes. The massive feminist who is so disparaging of 'girly girls'.

Ah but that’s evidence that can’t be allowed to count for anything

We have evidence that PBs are not needed and that historic outcomes are better than current ones

What does this mean? What evidence?

Hello! I’m here still!

And happy with how I live now !

evidence of the generations of transgender people who have grown up decades before any treatment or support was available ?

You do know this isn’t a recent phenomenon don’t you? That such feelings of gender problems have existed in every generation?

I was a child with gender identity problems

i thought I was a boy

i won’t give you the full story but basically yes that was me

but treatment was not available and no one would agree out of being kind

I lost most of the feeling - or rather I could separate feeling from fact

o still dislike- hate - my body must frequently but when I see the alternative…

It's so revealing the absolute desperation of trans extremists that children will be transitioned. Their complete failure to pay any attention to the safety and wellbeing of children in their determination to involve the young in this adult obsession or fetish.
Even spouting the discredited "pbs are fully reversible" lie. On and on they go - completely oblivious

It's chilling to see it laid out in plain sight.

Laughing about the potential effects of puberty blockers on mental development, and, really quite unbelievably, citing Jackie Green as evidence of no harm.

I wish Jackie Green all the luck in the world, but honestly, they're no advert

And the post upthread by transparent, unwittingly absolutely riddled with stereotypes. The massive feminist who is so disparaging of 'girly girls'.

It's more than that IMO. Taken with other posts it's a picture of a household where a 'feminine' (girly) girl is at best a disappointment and at worst a traitor to feminism, whereas a 'feminine' boy is breaking down barriers and sticking it to the patriarchy. The parent ends up with a 'boy' who still wears skirts. And we are supposed to think "yea, absolutely innate, that".

How is it transphobia? I’m actually trying to separate out people like your son from other groups under the “trans” umbrella that currently includes a hard core of highly misogynistic transwomen with violent tendencies and transwomen who get sexual gratification from wearing women’s clothes. But you want us to let everyone get on with it and “accept it” without question? Is there a word to describe the sort of parent who thinks it’s ok that we have medicalised giving teenage girls double mastectomies ? Were your family and child ever offered any form of psychological support when you were going through this - the whistleblowers from the Tavistock Clinic were very clear about the failings that didn’t consider other reasons for, or methods of relieving, gender distress. Of the Tavistock patients, 35% had an ASD diagnosis, 25% had spent time in care and children referred were 10x more likely than the general population to have a registered sex offender as a parent and yet you and others want us to believe that all these children are intrinsically trans?

Without you sharing more of your story—which you’re under no obligation to do—I can’t tell whether you’re describing childhood gender incongruence or making a version of the familiar “I was a Tom boy, I didn't like girly stuff—thank God they didn’t give me hormones!” argument. Those aren’t the same thing, and “I thought I was a boy” alone doesn’t give us enough information to distinguish between them.

Regardless, even if you were experiencing the genuine clinical condition of gender dysphoria, there’s no reason to assume you would have been given hormones. Prescribing involves extensive assessment, informed consent and individualised care, weighing the potential harms and benefits in each case. It isn’t simply a matter of giving out medication to everyone diagnosed with the condition simply because medication is available as a possible option.

Third, just because a treatment isn’t right for you, that doesn’t establish that it isn’t right for someone else. Indeed, having grown up without it, you can’t know what difference it might have made to you either. You can describe your own experience, but you can’t project from it and conclude “puberty blockers aren’t needed”. That’s quite an extraordinary generalisation.

I won’t give my full story but here are some snippets

i kept a razor blade for when I could work out how to correct my body without killing myslef / making my mother furious at the mess / working out how to stitch up the holes

I am always male when I dream

when the indians at work called me Peter not Petra ( names changed obviously) I didn’t correct them - I liked it , when email correspondents assumed I am
male I don’t correct - it makes me feel good

Ok, that sounds like gender incongruence in the clinical sense . I'm sorry you went through that.
So you still feel these things now, but you would rather live with the discomfort rather than socially and medically transition is what you are saying? That's totally valid. I'm just genuinely interested and curious what for you the different cost/ benefit matrix looks like.

I value my physical health. Surgery has risks and leads to permanent damage - weaknesses in some muscles. Scar tissue that never leaves. I have seen younger people and what they have to go through to protect their bone health. And they other concerns / excess testosterone and its impact on heart for example

and since they tend to end up aa a very small man everyone knows even if they dont say anything directly. And they are not treated the same as men.

and I am strongly aware of how much stronger my feelings become when people started the affirmation approach but I could recognise that as
part of the problem. How people treat me has always been difficult

I can’t help viewing the current approaches - hormonal treatment that sterilises and limit life , puberty blockers that infantilise , as just more forms of hatred for the different - when people were so scared of a girl like me that they would rather I was dead

Regardless, even if you were experiencing the genuine clinical condition of gender dysphoria, there’s no reason to assume you would have been given hormones. Prescribing involves extensive assessment, informed consent and individualised care, weighing the potential harms and benefits in each case. It isn’t simply a matter of giving out medication to everyone diagnosed with the condition simply because medication is available as a possible option.

Are you sure about this @Lacksie That's not what happened at WellBN is it?
Patient Safety Investigation WellBN General Practice | ICB - Surrey and Sussex

I value my physical health. Surgery has risks and leads to permanent damage - weaknesses in some muscles. Scar tissue that never leaves. I have seen younger people and what they have to go through to protect their bone health. And they other concerns / excess testosterone and its impact on heart for example

That's totally valid. Medical interventions certainly come with risks and harms.

and since they tend to end up aa a very small man everyone knows even if they dont say anything directly. And they are not treated the same as men.

I think every case is different. Some trans people pass, some don't. It's generally easier for trans men to pass than trans women - particularly trans women who have been through part or all of their male puberty.

and I am strongly aware of how much stronger my feelings become when people started the affirmation approach but I could recognise that as
part of the problem. How people treat me has always been difficult

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean that when trans experience started to be acknowledged more in society, it made you feel worse?

I can’t help viewing the current approaches - hormonal treatment that sterilises and limit life , puberty blockers that infantilise , as just more forms of hatred for the different - when people were so scared of a girl like me that they would rather I was dead

I’m so sorry you were treated as though people would rather you were dead than different.
I see things the opposite way: to me, the hostility to difference lies in wanting to eliminate transgender variance by excluding trans people from public life and denying them appropriate medical care, regardless of their own wishes and understanding of what is best for their health, wellbeing and future.

Respecting difference means allowing people to live differently from you, including making informed choices you wouldn’t make for yourself. Someone else might weigh the potential harms and benefits differently and decide that medical treatment is right for them. Your experience can be entirely valid without someone else’s wish for treatment being rooted in self-hatred, or the provision of that care being an expression of hatred towards people who are different.

Yes the more people talk about changing people the worse I feel - partly in that I feel people want to physically harm me and partly because it would be nice to be physically different- all at the same time

i think you are missing the key point about how normalisation of “treatment “ has affected how people approach their problems and made it harder for them to take a none medical route

when we can see many people have previously lived well without treatment, when we can see that the promise of treatment has a mental impact that makes it harder for people to manage without it , we should think very carefully indeed about normalising this

It isn’t simply a matter of giving out medication to everyone diagnosed with the condition simply because medication is available as a possible option.

In Re: Devin, a case in Australia, a treating clinician admitted they had never known a child be refused puberty blockers after they had been requested. Paragraph 190:

I refer, in particular, to the evidence of Dr N that no child or young person who has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by, and has asked for puberty blockers from, the CHGS, and has supportive parents, has ever been refused. Not dissimilarly, Associate Professor L said that almost all such children, if referred to a paediatrician at the CHGS, would be provided with the treatment

https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FedCFamC1F/2025/211.html

@brownbootsandhats I can’t help viewing the current approaches - hormonal treatment that sterilises and limit life , puberty blockers that infantilise , as just more forms of hatred for the different

That is a very profound insight. People with difference are being told that they are not normal and will always be unhappy and hated unless they normalise themselves through expensive and damaging drugs and surgery. This isn't liberation, it is unfettered capitalism at work.

The neurocognitive awareness of a child’s own sex is exactly what I wanted to hear about when I started this threads.

Prescribing involves extensive assessment, informed consent and individualised care, weighing the potential harms and benefits in each case. It isn’t simply a matter of giving out medication to everyone diagnosed with the condition simply because medication is available as a possible option.

Ffs, we're past all this, all the Tavistock clinicians blowing the whistle, talking about transing away the gay, WPATH saying it's all just opinion, leaking emails and reports where they know the children can't give informed consent, American lawsuits over Lupron.

Not to mention the upcoming (immoral) trial, to ostensibly establish evidence of whether puberty blockers even work!

It isn’t simply a matter of giving out medication to everyone diagnosed with the condition simply because medication is available as a possible option.

On what grounds would a clinic refuse medication?

@Lacksie If we are looking at trans from a neuro-cognitive angle, from what we know about brain development during this period, then it absolutely makes the case that we shouldn’t interfere with the processes of puberty using either puberty blockers or cross sex hormones in teenagers and young people, and that we should be paternalistic in our approach and not let any young person make irrevocable decisions about medical treatment until at least the age of 25.

fair enough.

I was exhausted by explaining it on the previous thread, as very few people were actually engaging at all, and certain users just ask the same questions over and over again, as if the conversation had never happened.