The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

No need to be coy. Are you talking about medication like antipsychotics?

I see @lacksieisn’t prepared to consider that generations of children with gender identity distress have grown up happy and healthy with no intervention

and isn’t prepared to accept that the promotion of a possible treatment has worsen the mental health of the current generation of such children

I can remember declaring that my brother was my brother and I was his brother. My mum said, no, you're a sister because you are a girl. Thank goodness she didn't mistake a linguistic error and my distinctly tomboy behaviour for gender incongruence.

It’s like we’ve gone back in time. Does Lacksie really think this is all new information to us?

In their heads they all seem to be very sexual, attractive, modern women with a man eating attitude and outspoken ‘feminist’ views. And other women seethe with jealousy at how attractive and captivating they are.

😂😂

"Yes, these vulnerable people need proper compassionate, comprehensive provision of healthcare that seeks to address and help them to come to terms with their mental health issues.

No 5-stone adult who is suffering from anorexia is 'affirmed' that she IS indeed dangerously obese and put on a strict diet or prescribed Mounjaro.

No alcoholic is given the keys to the local off licence and told to "take whatever you need", to 'affirm' the person whom 'they are clearly meant to be'.

No patient with psychosis, who is hearing voices urging them to go and randomly kill people, is given a machine gun and driven to a packed shopping centre on a Saturday, so that they can live their life as their 'true self'.

Why on earth would it be any different for a person who is obviously and provably male, but whose brain tries to convince him that he is female?

A child is distressed by the onset of puberty so drugs are given to stop the puberty. Why would a child whose distress had been relieved not want to continue down that path, especially when encouraged by adults who tell them that this is the problem free solution?

Jimmy Cricket used to tell one of his gloriously silly jokes that went something like "My sister is having a baby and is due to give birth next week - I'm so happy to be about to become an uncle... or an aunt, if the baby is a girl."

Nobody is actually supposed to take it seriously; and if it's a tiny child getting the wrong end of the stick, you just smile and gently explain it them.

Here's the definition of gender incongruence (from ICD-11)

Gender incongruence of childhood is characterised by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children. It includes a strong desire to be a different gender than the assigned sex; a strong dislike on the child’s part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games, or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex. The incongruence must have persisted for about 2 years. Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis.

Gender incongruence and transgender health in the ICD

Just so that we all know what sort of 'condition' this is.

Yes, findings from animal studies are used to inform human research. That doesn’t mean that any evidence of harm in animals automatically precludes human trials. The nature of the harm, the dose at which it occurs, its relevance to humans and the potential risks and benefits all matter. This is basic pharmacological research methodology.

You also seem to be suggesting that pharmacological treatment of psychological or neurodevelopmental conditions is only appropriate once psychological therapy has failed. That simply isn’t a universal principle of clinical medicine. Different conditions have different treatment pathways, and psychological and pharmacological interventions may be used independently or alongside one another.

As for your claims about psychological interventions, you’re conflating affirmation with the absence of psychological exploration. These are not the same thing. A psychologist can respect a child’s account of their gender identity while exploring their feelings, experiences, relationships and the social context in which their distress arises. There is no inherent contradiction between the two.
Indeed, the NHS England service specification published in April 2026 explicitly requires holistic assessment, psychological formulation and individualised care planning, including exploration of factors that might contribute to a child’s distress.

And finally, PATHWAYS requires prior psychosocial support and assessment of clinical suitability

I know you wish it were a thing of the past- but that is not the reality. The PATHWAYS trial is just getting started.

lacksie isn’t interested in any evidence unless it points their way

We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers

We will end the medical gatekeeping of our bodies

So considering that nobody who has reached adulthood can take puberty blockers, as it would be too late, they're demanding that they must be allowed to abuse children who are of course too young to be able to give informed consent.

And what's the betting that a good number of them would choose to take their children down the surgical mutilation route, if they were legally allowed to.

This is all dressed up as personal freedom and self-empowerment; yet in reality, it's the worst kind of Munchausens by Proxy. In principle, it's the exact same argument that the 'MAPs' use: the insidious reframing of their desires as 'respecting and enabling children who know their own minds' - and whose minds just so happen to be telling them to do exactly what they (the adults) want for them.

Yes, so to be clear, you want the PATHWAYS study to go ahead because you acknowledge there is little understanding around what failure to complete puberty does to children’s brains, apart from a sheep study you laugh about, even though thousands of children have been subjected to this treatment already?

“thank goodness I went through this before they became a thing”
is exactly what I say.
I feel great sympathy for children who experience what I did, and who are labelled as 'trans' rather than being loved and supported and enabled to accept the reality of their biological sex.

It is only very recently that the term 'transgender' has even been invented, let alone applied to children as young as 4 years old.

As you say, brownbootsandhats, generations of gender incongruent children made it to adulthood without medication or surgery, and created different lives for themselves as gender-non-conforming adults.

It was tough, it was challenging, it was a lot for a little kid like myself to have to deal with, but looking back, at least I stayed grounded in reality, and I was never sold the lie that if I didn't like my biological sex, I could go back and exchange it for another one.

It's much easier these to forge a different, gender-non-conforming path for yourself through to becoming the man or woman that you will inevitably become. The women's movement managed to loosen the strictures of gender stereotyping so a child can aspire to be whatever they want to be, however they wat to be, regardless of their unchangeable sex, which was not the case when I was a little girl.

The imposition of an adult label onto gender-incongruent children has turned the clock back, and the labels 'boy' and 'girl' are applied with renewed vehemence, and with the added threat of PBs and so-called 'transition' looming in the future.

Gender-incongruent children deserve better. They deserve the truth, and all the love and support and time and patience and space they need to accept the truth.

'a strong dislike on the child’s part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games, or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex.'

The first folded sentence is a major red flag. Why would any child have thay response to their healthy body?

And the second bold sentence is a nothing. What the fuck does it matter of a girl likes football or a boy plays with dolls?

Sorry for typos, am on phone.

I think we already have evidence, and the evidence supports a conclusion that the effects of puberty blockers are entirely temporary and reversible. However, I also believe we need much better data collection and more robust, longitudinal research, with larger samples of children receiving nhs support for gender incongruence and the outcomes associated with different treatment pathways. The King’s trial has its limitations and flaws, but I am hopeful it will nonetheless contribute to building this evidence base.

@MarieDeGournay
thank you

So what happens if it turns out the results are adverse and children are harmed in this “experiment”. You’ll be on the side of damaging children for an ideology….. not a side I’d prefer to be on

You've missed the point. We're saying you're rehashing arguments from 10 years ago which we now know not to be true. Also that loads of experiments have already been done on children, but due to poor record keeping we don't have all the results.

It's unethical to do even more experiments on children when we already know of many of the negative outcomes.

Especially when stereotyping is still a large part of the diagnostic criteria for treatment of these children (see ICD-11 posted earlier).

I wasn't rehashing an argument, you asked me what the purpose of PBs blockers are for children with gender incongruence. I described their purpose, because you asked. If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

I think we already have evidence, and the evidence supports a conclusion that the effects of puberty blockers are entirely temporary and reversible.

Does it?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

Because I wanted to know what you thought. Wasn't that obvious?

Edited to add:
And you told me what you thought, which showed that you didn't seem to be up to date.

What do you mean, we have evidence? We don’t have evidence on what happens to the brains of children when puberty blockers are not reversed and puberty is not allowed to finish. Thats what you want from PATHWAYS, isn’t it?

We also do not have evidence on what happens if puberty blockers are stopped after a longer period of use than is used for CPP.

All we have is evidence on what happens to children’s brains when they are given PBs for a short period for CPP.

So again, you have no concerns about the fact the first of these has been done to thousands of children already? And you think it’s time to do a study from now on to see what happens to a bunch of new children?