The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

There are no longer any laws ( in our society) that one must be congruent with sex based stereotypes or expectations ( which is what 'gender' is based upon).

For some reason - which can be explored in talk therapy - the child has picked up on strong messages, or directives, that they must be, must play, or must perform in a different way to what comes naturally to them, or which is against their instinctive preference.

Puberty is the process of physical changes between childhood and adulthood during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction.

There is no other definition. Your own made up definitions don't count.

Animal models can provide evidence as they do in other medical trials. If it causes harm in animals it doesn't progress to humans. We already know it causes harm in animals and now we're planning to test it on children, of all things.

It's also almost unheard of to do drug interventions for an issue with no physical symptoms, where psychological interventions have not been tried because it's against the prevailing rules not to affirm, and thereby reinforce, the child's dysphoria.

Why do you keep using people with disorders of sexual development to make points about 'trans rights'?

The evidence (which you seem keen on) is that this isn’t what they are used for. They are not a ‘pause’, they are a first step.

Do you really think it's ethical to experiment on children too young to consent in order to find out?

gender incongruence can be resolved through psychological therapy.

And/or puberty.

Actually I believe that it is most commonly and most effectively removed by puberty.

The child needs support until that is achieved, not drugs and surgery.

You could easily explain in a few sentences. I'd be interested to hear your explanation.

If you understand something you should be able to explain it in a simple way

Great response to a question you can't answer.

This is a series of factual misrepresentations.

Animal studies can provide useful evidence about potential harms, but findings in animals cannot simply be extrapolated to humans. Nor is it true that evidence of adverse effects in animals automatically prevents a treatment from progressing to human trials. Clinical research involves assessing the relevance of those findings and the balance of potential risks and benefits.

The suggestion that medical interventions are almost unheard of for conditions without physical symptoms is also plainly wrong. Medicine routinely uses pharmacological treatments for psychiatric and psychological conditions. And gender dysphoria can involve significant distress relating to physical sexual development, which is precisely why puberty suppression is being investigated.

Your claim that psychological interventions have not been tried is equally incorrect. Psychological and psychosocial support have long been part of gender services, and participation in PATHWAYS specifically requires prior psychosocial support.

Finally, there is no prevailing clinical rule prohibiting exploration of gender dysphoria or requiring clinicians simply to affirm and reinforce it. Current NHS guidance explicitly provides for holistic psychological assessment and individualised formulation

Do you mean this Dutch study?

'The control group and those who were currently on puberty blockers did not have any statistically significant difference in suicidality, whereas those who were referred to the clinic but had not begun puberty blockers scored higher in suicidality than the other groups, but Cohen’s d revealed small effect sizes. There was neither mention nor control for psychiatric diagnostic history, substance use, or current psychiatric treatment.'

A literature review on suicidality

'There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.'

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/

As I said, I'm not going to get into a linguistic debate about what can properly be described as puberty. What matters is we understand the physiological and psychological effects, benefits versus harms and risks, of PBs + MAF hormones, versus PBs + natural puberty, versus no physical interventions for children with gender incongruence

Why are you so keen for there to be experimentation on children @Lacksie ?

Presumably the same reason they’re so cavalier about suppressing the development of the adolescent brain.

What is the definition of gender incongruence?

I am very keen that we build better evidence on what works to support children with gender incongruence. These are groups of children and they are in often severe amounts of clincial distress. They deserve evidence based healthcare, and politics should not prevent that from being delivered.

Here’s a hint @Lacksie

id we genuinely do want the best for these children

we have had centuries of children with gender incongruity and no hormone therapy- many still alive today - you could ask them how they coped and if they think puberty blockers would have helped

what I hear time and again is “thank goodness I went through this before they became a thing”

What kind of pharmacological treatments for psychiatric and psychological conditions where you thinking of? And how do they work?

you and I have discussed this at length, you may not agree or like my explanations but to keep asking the question as if it is a fresh one that hasn't been extensively asked and answered is quite something.

Reference the body of psychiatric medicine.

Here the basis for Lacksie's argument:

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

'We will change our bodies however we want. We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies. We will end the medical gatekeeping of our bodies.'

...
'We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request.* *We need free, universal access to safe hormones & blockers at any age, the opportunity to decide our own doses, and universally accessible information on the safety & efficacy of different regimens. '

This is a series of factual misrepresentations.

no it isn't

Animal studies can provide useful evidence about potential harms, but findings in animals cannot simply be extrapolated to humans. Nor is it true that evidence of adverse effects in animals automatically prevents a treatment from progressing to human trials. Clinical research involves assessing the relevance of those findings and the balance of potential risks and benefits.

Findings in animals are extrapolated to humans in research all the time. If drugs cause harm in the animal trials they don't progress to human trials.

The suggestion that medical interventions are almost unheard of for conditions without physical symptoms is also plainly wrong.

It's a good job that's not what I said then, isn't it? I said drugs weren't used before psychological interventions had failed.

Medicine routinely uses pharmacological treatments for psychiatric and psychological conditions. And gender dysphoria can involve significant distress relating to physical sexual development, which is precisely why puberty suppression is being investigated.

Yes it causes significant distress, which is why it is shameful that the trans lobby actively prevents child psychologists from exploring why a girl feels she might want to be a boy in a patriarchal society, or a boy a girl in a homophobic environment.

Your claim that psychological interventions have not been tried is equally incorrect. Psychological and psychosocial support have long been part of gender services, and participation in PATHWAYS specifically requires prior psychosocial support.

Oh yes, support is provided. Affirmative support that confirms the child in their dysphoria.

Finally, there is no prevailing clinical rule prohibiting exploration of gender dysphoria or requiring clinicians simply to affirm and reinforce it. Current NHS guidance explicitly provides for holistic psychological assessment and individualised formulation

There absolutely is a prohibition on child psychologists rejecting affirmation. I have a good friend who is one, published multiple times and who works on contracts with children in care.

She can explore why a girl might want to be an eagle or lion or other apex predator, but the moment that child says she's a boy she has to affirm that belief and not explore with the child why they might feel that way.

Do you actually understand what grooming of children - or indeed adults - is? The entire point of it is that vulnerable people are exploited, lied to and gaslit over a long period of time by abusers, into believing that the abuse and dangerous messages that they're being given are completely normal and harmless.

The abusers will often also exploit the conflicting feelings that their victim will have, especially if they are the parents or other close relatives of the victim, whom the victim is naturally inclined to feel love for. Even on MN, there are countless threads started by women about their 'dear husband', where he is treating them horrifically and abusively, and they are asking if they are justified for being a little bit peeved at him.

One that will never leave me is the OP whose husband was so angry at her for making a private list for her own use about all the ways that she was deeply unhappy - because of his abuse of her - that he forced her to sit there and eat the paper that she'd written the list on. Worse still, his parents were there - the parents of an adult man, so obviously mature people - and they were urging her that it would be best to comply.

It can take a very, very long time to reach a point where you realise and feel able to start trying to acknowledge and deconstruct your trauma, and try to start rebuilding your life. For some people, they are into middle age or older; and for many, that day never arrives at all. Not a few of them tragically see no alternative way to 'deal with it' but to take their own lives.