A Man in a dress- how would you feel?

[Wooopdiedoo]

I'm fairly new here and have only read through a couple of posts, but I wanted to ask a question.

How would you feel if a man you knew wanted to wear "Female" (heavy on the quotation marks) clothing?

I'm specifically talking about a male whose only intention is to wear the dress because they like the dress, nothing else — no statement, no 'changing' of pronouns or wanting to be treated or referred to in any particular way, no mockery, no discussion or intention of 'becoming' a woman (again, quote unquote, not saying it's possible).

Would you genuinely be okay with this, say if your husband/friend/ colleague wearing a dress out in public? Would you have any thoughts or feelings about it, and would these affect what you say to them or how you would act?

I'm not sure how I would respond, honestly, and I know that's probably (definitely) due to my internalisation of 'gendered' norms (by that I man sex based). I think I my knee jerk reaction might be to feel inclined that its somehow not right or looks silly, before reminding myself that its just a piece of fabric and if someone likes what they like on their body, thats kindof the end of it.

On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't have the same reaction to seeing women in any clothing, and my response would always be neutral to positive.

You’re the one who said people’s beliefs don’t always match reality…. So are you saying the belief of some men that they are women is erroneous? Which ones? How do we know which have a correct belief and which are mistaken?

Um, the one's without rational justifications?

I can't believe I have to explain this …but here we are….

But we have agreed there is no rational justification for a male to believe he is a woman haven’t we? I mean, a male cannot be a woman as a woman is an adult human female, you have agreed sex is binary and immutable and that gender roles are not related to sex, so anyone performing the gender roles are of one sex is not actually that other sex. The conclusion therefore must be that you agree the belief of aman that he is a woman does not actually coincide with reality.

Yes like fear of flying or rollercoasters, but you don’t deny the person has a real fear, or force them onto an aeroplane/tower of terror. Despite both being quite safe, you let them decide their own risks and respect that.

But we have agreed there is no rational justification for a male to believe he is a woman haven’t we?

No we haven't. Identifying with social categorisations is hardly irrational.

I mean, a male cannot be a woman as a woman is an adult human female, you have agreed sex is binary and immutable and that gender roles are not related to sex, so anyone performing the gender roles are of one sex is not actually that other sex.

No. Sex is binary AND multi modal.

You keep attributing to me your own bizarre distorted interpretations. Its quite the feat. How do you cope in real life?

Nooo, sex cannot be binary and multi modal

to quote the princess bride

Of course. But bogus fears doesn't give them the right to dictate rights or identity.

Yes dear….

See you’re agreeing again! I love it! True meeting of the minds here. It’s ok if you don’t know what words mean, no one is judging you.

Are they bogus fears? Fear is fear, you are very judgemental of people’s mental health issues. Is OCD all bogus?

They have the right to perceive identity however they want.

In this current "gender" climate, I doubt that any man would wear women's clothing in public "just because". Trans widows have told us that cross-dressing (first in secret, then at home, then in public) is an AGP pipeline to going the full hog and "becoming" a woman (sic!). I'd advise you to watch Vaisnavi Sundar's documentary about this:

Fetishes, like all paraphilias, are overwhelmingly a male trait.

And paraphilias tend to cluster. What most paraphilias have in common is an interest in the non-consensual participation of others.

Which is absolutely predatory and presents a threat.

Women learn through experience, unfortunately, about the risks that men present.

https://archive.org/details/giftoffearsurviv00debe_0/page/n1/mode/2up

Some men make it their life's work to undermine women's protective responses and strategies.

Older women have plenty of life experience and know the words.

Women and girls should learn to trust their instincts.

We know what red flags are.

We know that a sizeable proportion of men are predators, and a larger proportion enjoy bullying women, causing alarm, distress, whether that be by insulting or 'negging' or chipping away at the bonds women have, undermining women, sowing discord, or outright insults and hostility and aggression.

When you watch this film, you see how very quickly the catcalls and gestures turn to hostility, aggression, resentment, and the woman hatred is revealed very quickly.

'Women have very little idea how much men hate them'

Germaine Greer

Unfortunately, after a lifetime, one starts to grasp it.

Apparently, pattern matching is a thing when it comes to justifying why "woman" should be based on social commonalities rather than sex, but not when it comes to female people recognising common patterns in male behaviour.

Good to know. Not an incoherent self serving ideology that throws whatever half understood out of context buzzwords it picked up from other fully coherent and consistent bodies of analysis it thinks it can get away with to cover the yawning gap in its fundamental belief system at all.

It does my heart good every single time a gender critical feminist critique gets DARVO'd back to us. It proves they get it even if they can't yet admit it.

The whole list reads as thinly veiled demands to go along with someone else's fantasy or mental delusion and is just another example of how the respect, dignity and setting of boundaries is all one way.

Im pretty good at pattern matching, myself. Means I have a good idea when posters are in good faith and when they aren’t.

...and they are entitled to identify as whatever they want. Nobody else is required to affirm their self-identification.

Pattern matching helps in recognising those posters popping up with new usernames but still the same old tedious arguments.

I’m learning rapidly….

Like a bad argument will suddenly work because it's made under a different name. 😂

Damn. But I don't think their fetish should take priority over my rights, so that is just tough on them, isn't it.

I am not sure it does prove that they get it, though.

I think they grasp that we win all the arguments, but I have the feeling that our arguments are repurposed and echoed back to us purely in an attempt to win, not because the actual points are grasped and understood.

I had a lot of experience arguing with a narcissist/controlling man; it eventually dawned on me that he would say absolutely anything at all in order to win. The truth or the arguments were just totally immaterial. Personality disordered arguments are tricky, because they shapeshift, because the person making them is not participating for the same reasons most people discuss/argue. They are measuring points by their impact on the opponent, rather than against any objective idea of truth or logic etc.

A narc might lie, or lie by omission, or parrot back what you've just said, or go on the attack. Whatever it takes. All they are trying to do is gaslight, twist, and triumph. It can be quite tiring.

"Request Basic Respect and Dignity: Signaling an identity—such as sharing one's correct name or pronouns—is a direct request for accurate external recognition. '

Asking for pronouns that are obviously counter to reality is a bid for control. It's demanding someone lie over the evidence of their own eyes and ears.

It's always a demand for control, because it signals one should not use the obvious words. Using something other than the obvious words - pronouns to denote sex, which is almost always perfectly and objectively clear - is a request to set aside one's own knowledge and experience in order to prioritise someone else's inner subjective feelings.