Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

You hit the nail on the head. It isn't realistic to test the literal / practical application of this. So.. we do have to keep judging based on likelihood of threat. I.e. appearance. If you look like you have a penis then you just don't use vagina-only spaces.

Shame we can't keep the labels of men and women due to how much of a hot topic that is. But the outcome is the same. Just with a solid argument to back it up and shift focus from 'identity'.

We do keep people out for safety reasons
and the simple fact is that all people with penises are a significant risk to women and therefore all people with penises - I’ll call them men for short - are given different treatment to women in certain circumstances

because the segregation is seen as a reasonable price to pay for the increased female safety and additional benefits that then brings to society

there is no evidence that PwP ( men ) who identify as women behave like women so I can’t see a PwP as a woman can I? Illogical

btw - just because someone seems nice and doesn’t immediately attack you the first possible opportunity that doesn’t mean they are safe. Indeed the world would be easier if that were the case. Abusive, dangerous men ( well successful ones ) tend to play a long game , win your trust, win the trust of the community …

I'll tell you what men who are not a threat to women and girls do, they stay out of female spaces.

Its a very simple shorthand method of working out who is visibly being a predator.

Yes. It's such a common argument among people who haven't thought this through properly. "I don't mind, so why would you?"

Because we live in a society. Other female people matter too.
The selfishness and lack of perspective drives me mad.

For the vast, vast majority of people, the meanings of men and women haven’t changed. The SC judgement clarified that any sex specific rights are predicated on … well … sex.

So I don’t see the issue. Even the muppets who take issue with these words know what the law says.

Your points are valid but you won't win with sentimental-sounding, man-bashing arguments.

Keep emotions out of it and speak facts only. Because those are all that matter.

In a perfect world, we could see each other's 'auras' (or something) and know instantly who was a threat and women would know who they could be alone with. Sadly, that's garbage and not gonna happen.

I don't ask men to stay out of unsupervised areas where I'm vulnerable because "historically men have abused women", I do it because 'that person here and now with a possible penis' (man / transwoman) is a stranger I don't trust and don't have to trust. I don't know if they're a danger to me so they need to stay out. And you need to be specific on why. Narrow your focus.

Exactly. It’s a huge red flag when men do not respect women’s boundaries. Read the Gift of Fear.

We have to adapt to the times. If people insist you can be a woman with a penis.. then narrow your focus to use specific language. Talk exclusively about genitals (ffs) and knock the wind out the sails of people who want to argue two things at once: that men can be women and that transwomen have the right to be in vagina-only spaces.

These are two different issues (or should be) but everyone is arguing them as though they are one. You might be right. Maybe men can't be women. Personally, I couldn't care less if a man identifies as a woman. But that's not relevant to this argument anyway. Separate it out and you will win. Make it not about identity and you get your single-sex spaces back where there is no supervision.

Well, reading those posts is 5 minutes I'll never get back

I like men. I have one on my sofa right now. I worked in construction practucally my whole working life. Most of my best friends are men.

It is not man bashing to know about the behaviour of men. If men feel bashed by women pointing their disgusting behaviour out, they can choose to just stop doing it.

The threat as identified by women and girls and dogs the world over, is men.

Good thread from a few years back - came up when I was AI searching my username for a current ongoing thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3322589-Saying-no-to-men

if you can’t understand that the stranger who is PwP is a far bigger risk than the one without its strange for you to be be talking about facts - risks are facts and known

the risks caused almost exclusively by PwP include rape, sexual assault, GBH etc etc

its not men bashing to point this out . it’s just simple unemotive language

No we don’t. When nonsense is being spouted, we have to push back on it firmly and reiterate the actual meaning of words.

We do not have to change our vocabulary because a small group of scientifically illiterate men want us to.

Actually they are claiming both even in crt when under oath.
Transwomen are neither though as they are and always will be men/male

Yes. I strongly believe that those men who insist they must be granted access to female spaces are absolutely at the front of the list of those that should stay out.

@Shedmistress “I like men. I have one on my sofa right now”

Love this!!

Odd how these discussions about trans inclusivity in feminism always lead to a certain group of posters banging on about trans women being women.

Bugger all reference to TMAM… because biological women, no matter how they identify, really are less important than men.

So, to clarify: I am absolutely a trans-inclusive feminist in that I include trans men - with all their rights, their needs, their safety and health care - in both my definition of ‘women’ and my consequent understanding of feminism.

TW, though? They can piss right off.

They are definitely a potential threat.

@Awkwardisfunny “We have to adapt to the times”

People have always known what a man and a woman are. There was never any confusion, and people still know what a man and a woman are. No woman has ever had a penis!

Of course you don't think it's a good analogy, because that would make you a bigot.

Bigotry is bigotry. There are plenty of people who think their bigotry isn't bigotry because they can't possible be bigots - after all, they support other people's rights. Carving out an exception for their own brand of hatred inevitably leads to unpleasant alliances. Just think of who your allies are, the far-right, Trump Republicans and Christian fundamentalists. They absolutely can't get enough of gender critical patsies.

Bla bla bla men still aren’t women tho

If you ever had a penis you should stay out of female single sex spaces. I don't care if you've castrated yourself. You still have male strength. And TW do not have vaginas, we've been through this.

Poor OP - Mouldy and Howse showcasing their scientific illiteracy on the same thread 😂

Sorry mate - no men in women's sport or spaces. No rewriting language to hide the men with the red flags.

No.

Who’s got their bingo card?

@Mouldemort If saying men can’t become women makes me a bigot, so be it.

I am stating a fact.