Saying no to men

[OunceOfFlounce]

I've heard the idea on here that its useful for a woman to say no to a man about something trivial in order to see how he reacts. I like this idea a lot and wonder if anyone could give an example of when they've done this irl and how they've interpreted the results?

I don't really get this kind of advice anywhere other than here.

Oh, and sorry if this is already a thread. I looked but couldn't find one.

I think there are lots of ways to check a man for his secret attitudes.

The way he treats other people (waitresses especially) is one.

I haven't specifically done this - but certainly found that saying no to my ex was like a red rag to a bull. it wasn't a test - but I should have taken notice of it.

Oh yes, same with mine. If only I’d known then what I know now. My ex was lovely as long as you were going along with him. I don’t think the word no was in my vocabulary in those days, and when it found its way and he became anything but lovely. If I was dating men now I’d certainly try this approach. Better to find out early doors if he is a misogynistic, Boundry ignoring twat.

In, not and*

I would imagine it's good advice.
It's never occurred to me not to say no when I didn't want to do something, so I guess people who meet me become aware of this fairly early on.
I can't recall any of my partners responding badly, I must have been lucky.

It's not just explosive behaviour you need to watch for - keep an eye on wheedling, whiny or blackmailing behaviour too. Or being overly-selfsacrificing so that you "owe" them something. It's all boundry-pushing, even if it's done "nicely".

Yeah, had one of those.

I just posted this on another thread but it applies here too -

I recently saw a woman say no to a man (actually she said wait 2 minutes). He started shouting at her and calling her a fucking bitch. 10 mins later he was nice as pie to me and some other women (not realising we had seen him with the first woman). Because I've been v fortunate I've never experienced abusive behaviour or someone flip like that, I don't think I really understood it before. I'm beginning to get it now.

I had met the man before and thought he was chatty and friendly. Scales have fallen now.

Well when I say no to my DH (when he is being a bit unreasonable or cheeky) he immediately looks a bit cheesy and the offers to do for me the thing that he had just asked me to do. (things like asking me to make some tea or something else equally trivial). He's a bit of a chancer sometimes.

It's not just explosive behaviour you need to watch for - keep an eye on wheedling, whiny or blackmailing behaviour too.

Yes, exactly.

Straightforward acceptance of your trivial no = man is likely to be ok

Temper tantrum at your trivial no = avoid man at all costs

Wheedle at your trivial no = try a few more nos and if the same thing always happens, avoid man going forward

Oh, and sorry if this is already a thread. I looked but couldn't find one

I saw this on another thread, I think it's an idea which deserves on of its own. I must remember to pass this advice on to my DD.

Actually I wonder if it's such a useful idea that it should have an AIBU thread.

The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker has loads of useful info including;

• How to use a compliance test on a potential predator
• How to spot when a predator is using compliance tests on you
• How to spot Pre Incident Indicators (PINS)

the-eye.eu/public/Books/Radical%20Feminist%20Literature/Gavin%20de%20Becker/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20%28123%29/The%20Gift%20of%20Fear%20-%20Gavin%20de%20Becker.pdf

Also, Predators by Anna Salter.
Learn how predators operate and how to use safeguarding.

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses.

Because my dad wasn't the greatest example with regards to this, I worry I sometimes accept negative behaviour without really thinking. My immediate priority is to diffuse any potential flare ups so even though I do have a fear of uncovering this kind of Jekyll and Hyde thing (or maybe because of this fear) I'd never considered the benefits of an outright no before. My approach is always to try to negotiate because I don't want to seem mean. But that's another way of controlling women isn't it, the obligation to be nice?

With my Dad, it was a side to his personality I always knew but my sister's husband was the first time I was shocked by the kind of switch you mention rememberatime, hotrocker and viago.

And yes, I guess there are lots of different ways to push someone's boundaries - all signs telltale signs even when they're directed at other people.

I'd not heard of either of those books before, UpstartCrow, even though The Gift of Fear seems to be really well known! The Anna Salter seems like a gruelling read but both undoubtedly useful.

I wish I'd got back to this thread sooner so I could respond more individually, but I don't want to write reams and reams. Anyway, thanks all for your thoughts/advice.

This is really good, little known feminist analysis, and quite chilling. It's audio- only about 10 mins long. It explores as an example why Ted Bundy was so successful in kidnapping, raping and killing young women through a feminist lens. Like the Gift of Fear but she notes that in the Gift of Fear most of the stories where someone escaped unscathed because they trusted their gut were men while the ones who knew something was wrong, didn't act on it and got hurt were women.

m.youtube.com/watch?a=&feature=youtu.be&v=D468U_skw1A

Thanks for that link Ereshkigal

Beware the favor shark and shun the frumious team we d00dz.
People who refuse to take no for an answer are not safe to be around, and always remember to never ever ever set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

A book I have found useful in the past, for developing my own assertiveness is:

A Woman In your Own Right: Assertiveness and You

By Anne Dickson

... this is of course the flip side of what this thread's about, but I thought I'd mention it, since so many of us find it hard to be assertive in the first place. sorry for derail

Such good advice, which I wish I'd followed, but I promise myself I shall in future!

I do though, look back and shake my head at the not so subtle clues I missed about my ex-husband: two I remember within weeks of having met him. First he asks me to call a taxi on my phone after we've been out for the night, but I say his surname (an unusual one), and they say they don't take anyone with that name. Second, this woman in a pub asks me if I'm his new girlfriend, and I say yes, she says "You poor cow". Both had me indignant rather than running for the hills, fool that I was.

And the book that set me free: Lundy Bancroft and Why does he do that? Inside the minds of controlling men. I know a lot of women on mn have read this too. A life changing book that also described my father to me.

Necromancing this thread because someone linked it and I think it is an important one.

Always screen men (really anyone, but you know...) for boundary-pushing behaviour and general disrespectfulness of others. If he is rude to the restaurant server, he'll be rude to you once he's not on his best "early relationship" behaviour. And if you say no to something unimportant and he freaks out, imagine how he will react to something that actually matters, like money or breaking up.

The book recommendations on this thread are great!

Ereshkigal
Thanks that clip was really thought provoking, should be essential viewing for all teens/young women.

I've always been fascinated with true crime stories/movies/(now) podcasts, some people think that's weird but to be honest I've found it a help to educate me to identify behaviour that could put me in danger. It's helped me observe sociopathic behaviour and call it out if I feel it is endangering or adversely affecting others. I'm not qualified in psychology (have done some entry level study) so I'm reluctant to "point it out" but the two times I have were proven correct.

What I most take away from that clip is how easily manipulated women and girls are. I've fortunately avoided (have shared before in a previous comment) a paedophile at 10. My politeness put me in that situation. Funnily enough the fact I was raised in poverty (lower social class) is what helped me to step up against creepers, told a guy dating my mum, who said how pretty I was and asked me to sit on his knee (I was 13) to "fuck off perve". Not saying poverty/working class are not polite, I was endlessly having manners drilled into me. God forbid if a woman caused a scene, mortifying. That life, however, gives you a certain amount of street smarts, instincts, call it what you will. It's like for women/girls female intuition on speed.

I'm not really sure how I would describe my life now? Almost upper middle class maybe? In the UK it appears that this is judged on education level attained, maybe parents careers? Apologies if I'm wrong it's just my observations from online commentary.

Regardless imo all girls/young women should be taught to FUCK POLITENESS and trust their instincts above all else.

I practise a lot more than I used to. And without the accompanying, almost obligatory, "sorry".

It's ok to say, "no" to men as long as you acknowledge that doing so is a failing on your part. You might be forgiven for that.

It's rarely welcomed and, when it's relayed to other men, you discover that they didn't realise you were, "that sort of woman" or "like that".

A man unfriended and blocked me on Facebook this week. Why? Because I politely disagreed with someone and when he tried to tell me I was wrong, I elaborated to explain why I wasn't. Men just don't like it.

*him not someone