Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

All reputable academic will acknowledge that trans inclusinary feminism is a branch if feminism, irrespective of how much they disagree with it. So they might say "trans women arent women and that is why they shouldn't be centred or even included in feminist principle", but they wouldnt argue that some feminists believe differently.

The whole "you is not a feminist" is the work of buffoons on the internet from both sides.

I think arguing over who is and who isn't a feminist is a bit pointless in my opinion. GC feminists are going to say trans inclusive feminists are not real feminists and trans inclusive feminists are going to say GC feminists are not real feminists.

The clue is in the name. If it’s centring men, it’s not feminism.

Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women.

Fixed that for you.

And some trans women ARE claiming to be natal females. You are so out of the loop on this sometimes.

It isn't feminism if it includes men.

Can you give me some examples from the last decade where transwomen have “helped dismantle the patriarchy”. Actual practical steps?

I would also like to see examples of transwomen joining the “ranks of the oppressed” if possible.

Are transwomen accepting reduced pay, a greater burden of childcare, care for the elderly, unpaid domestic labour?

Why would the women defending women’s sex based rights not be feminists?

Why would a feminist of any stripe think that 'woman' is the lesser gender?

Am I missing something or is this a joke post? (Sorry, I don't always get when something is a joke!)

And if you don't understand that trans inclusive feminists don't see trans women as men, then you aren't really part of the conversation.

I can see clear logic on one side, but not the other. Can you explain how “trans inclusive feminists” could logically say that not believing men are women on their say so goes against core principles of feminism, not some navel gazing postmodern shite they made up?

Yes. It makes everyone who does this look very amateur. I mean I learned that feminism had different approaches in year 10.

@Choppingwoodcarryingwater
Yup that's what I said. Claiming self determination should only apply to natal women & not trans women is superiority not equality.

It's nothing to do with superiority. It's to do with the biological reality that one has two X chromosomes and the other has XY. One is not better than the other, they are just different.

(Don't start on the hormone arguments because I did some research the other day and the Y chromosome influences development outside of the impact of androgens. A man cannot make himself the biological equivalent of a woman.)

It's nothing to do with self determination either. Women don't self determine as women. They are women.

Go ask them, I'm not a TRA.

I read "you is not a feminist" in an Ali G voice

I actually think Ali G would make more sense

No silly, I would never say something so blatantly discriminatory about a whole group of people. If you read my post you'll see I was referring to men as the lesser gender!

i’m assuming this is satire.

Well I mean, I have seen a few people say it but on the whole, GC feminists are called TERFs, aren't they? So even the word they use as a slur includes "feminist".

So it was a bit of a meaningless statement then. Some people believe the undead walk the earth. People think a lot of things. Not all opinions are equal or valid.

Because to me that's how some of the posts sound. Like something Ali G would say.

What are you wittering about?

I don’t.
I call myself a sex realist.
Gender. It’s a made up word.
Biological truth doesn’t care about your hurt feelings.

But then the whole premise is wrong.

Transwomen ARE men. There is no onetime, verifiable, scientific criteria where they are anything but men.

Their starting point is false, so their position falls apart immediately

I’d be grateful if you could give me some examples of “legitimate sociological associations” that transwomen possess than mean I should see them as women.

Did you read the post I wrote?

I'm not here to defend the TRA position as I am not a trans inclusive feminist myself. If you want to know more about how they think you need to go to r/askafeminist.