Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

Yes of course. Trans women are more than welcome in the fight to dismantle the patriarchy. They honour us by rejecting the lesser gender that they were born with and joining the ranks of the oppressed class. That is something that deserves a hell of an amount of recognition from the rest of us cisgendered women who never had the option to identify out of oppression.

this kind of post makes me so angry. You don’t get to give away my rights because you think feminism can include males who cosplay as females.

That's twice you've made reference to "academics" now. Are the plebs not allowed their opinion?

Be wary of being so in thrall to what "academics" think. They can be wrong. This I know.

Why can't he self identify as black and get himself on a shortlist list for black and Asian people?

Could any BLM supporter ever support the inclusion of a white person on such a shortlist? Of course not!

As soon as you take this is out of the arena of a man trying to muscle in on the rights of women, it exposes now ridiculous it is.

Using the name “feminism” doesn't actually make it feminism though.

We are all aware that a clothes horse is not a horse despite the name, see also hot dog.

And no one is saying that “it doesn’t exist”, just that we disagree with the principle.

Are they also more than welcome in female only spaces?

Plenty of men are feminists, there is no requirement to be female to be a feminist.

Unless this post is satirical, I find the reference to either of the sexes as being superior or inferior distasteful.

It is relevant if some people believe that it is relevant and therefore form many of their related opinions and beliefs are centred around it.

You might not believe in an internal gendered identity but a lot of people do resonate with this way of looking at themselves. Denying they exist is pointless. They exist and they develop socio-political values and beliefs that centre around their beliefs about (gender) identity. Not unlike people in here who do not see themselves or the world that way and centre their own values and beliefs around that.

Just like much of a trans inclusive feminist's values will be centred around their beliefs that TWAW (and TMAM), much of your values (ie your feminism) is centred around the belief that they are not. Often to the exclusion of other feminist issues.

But that is why we have different branches if feminism. Different people have different priorities and beliefs about how to achieve equality and where society is unequal to begin with.

I define feminism as promoting the needs of the female sex.

'Transinclusivity' is an ideological term - I would read it as 'including people who deny their sex (for a variety of reasons) and expect me to agree with them'

So , women who deny their sex - they are included in my feminism because i'm looking to promote improvement for ALL women, even those who struggle with being a woman. Maybe if we improve womanhood they would be happier to accept it.

Men who deny their sex cannot be included in feminism for me, because they are men.

The thing with self determination means its upto individuals to decide what they believe that's why self identification exists. Identity is a personal determination that people are entitled to regardless of how illogical or impractical or unhelpful others may find it just like atheists don't get to dictate their beliefs onto theists.

How are 'trans women' aka men who say they are women joining the oppressed class when literally every law and institution and service has been bent sideways and backwards including language itself, to accommodate, facilitate and never upset them?

That is not an oppressed class, that is a highly priviledged class.

They can decide what they believe.

They cannot decide what they ARE when all objective, verifiable, scientific evidence says otherwise.

"Denying they exist is pointless" - did I deny they exist? That's somewhat hyperbolic.

I know they exist. And I happen to think their beliefs are wrong and not based in fact, science or biology.

"Some people believe it" isn't sound reasoning. Some people believe lots of things that aren't actually true.

Disagreeing with the principle doesn't mean it isnt feminism, though. It's feminism because it acknowledges that men hold more structural and societal power and that has led to ongoing oppression. That's all feminism requires.

I include all women in feminism. Including women who claim to be men. And zero men. Including men who claim to be women. It’s really that simple. Some people claim to be vegetarian as a pp said, but this claim often falls short when they have the occasional bacon sandwich or eat fish.

Yes the men that pretend they are women do hold the power. Hence why they are absolutely nothing to do with 'feminism'.

"academics", especially in the field of sociology, don't hold the most respected views in the world right now.

Even more so given that it's a field where opposing voices have been actively, life changingly, silenced.

Yes but you don't seem to understand the difference between "I disagree with that approach to feminism" and "that isn't feminism".

Claiming self determination should only apply to natal women & not trans women is superiority not equality.

The point would be that I don’t “self identify” as a woman.

I am obviously, observably and provably a woman.

My femaleness is not something I “feel” it is material reality.

My femaleness is also the reason for the social, political, financial, medical, professional and legal disadvantage I have operated under my whole life.

And self identifying as a man wouldn't remove any of those disadvantages.

Male and female bodies are different. If they were truly fighting the patriarchy they wouldn’t be taking advantage of this difference and taking sports awards from women.

No it's not all feminism requires.

Feminism requires that you don't actively do things that damage women.

@DebbieSavage So, you are saying men can be feminists - men can promote the needs of the female sex. This is possible I think.

Men who pretend to be women aren't doing this though - they are denying the needs of the female sex and prioritising their own wants - that they want validation and for women to be subjugated into putting their wants, (men's wants) before their own needs.

No.
Because men are not women.

Because there is no legitimate association demonstrable in reality. Age requires chronological associations. Gender only requires sociological associations that trans women possess.

Female is a sexed term btw. Woman is both a sex & gendered term. Trans women aren't claiming to be natal females they are claiming to be sociological women.

What is it with all the ‘denying they exist’ rhetoric?

This, basically.