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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

952 replies

Imdunfer · 07/10/2026 08:29

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

OP posts:
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Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 18:29

Helleofabore · Yesterday 18:27

I am SOOOOOO excited though that we are going to perhaps finally get a link to the test that can be used to work out who is genuinely transgender and who is not!!!!

It is exciting! And I assume the trans community are very excited too, because they will finally get to show us that their transness is a real, measurable thing!

Helleofabore · Yesterday 18:30

Does everyone remember when Steph Pompey announced that there was evidence that showed accurately who was and wasn't transgender?

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 18:30

Helleofabore · Yesterday 18:30

Does everyone remember when Steph Pompey announced that there was evidence that showed accurately who was and wasn't transgender?

He got a lot of flak, didn’t he? From Katie Montgomerie IIRC

BackToLurk · Yesterday 18:31

totino · Yesterday 18:11

The Suzie Izzard thing is amusing because yeah she used to talk about "girl mode" and "boy mode", but a couple of years later and she's just Suzie now. Personal journeys are messy.

Though I did know a nonbinary person who did have "boy mode" and "girl mode" days. It's not for me but the way they explained it made sense to me.

EDIT: I don't know Frank Maloney but yeah, Caitlyn Jenner was also always a woman. Women can be dicks (as well as have them, occasionally).

Edited

So Bruce Jenner, the Olympic athlete who described himself at the start of his transition as a lonely little boy, was in fact a girl and a woman? And we would know that how?

Eddie Izzard claimed in 2020 that he was now in ‘girl mode’ and by 2023 was ‘Suzy’. Strangely Eddie managed to be credited as Eddie in the 2024 film Midas Man. Maybe the paycheck was bigger for boy mode. But sure, he’s a woman.

I still don’t know what you think detransitioners are. Keira Bell? Always a man or a woman?

Imdunfer · Yesterday 18:31

Imdunfer · Yesterday 17:28

Since I don't think there's an "universal woman experience" or an "universal man experience",

We agree 100% on that.

Which is why the only way to define who is male and who is female, as opposed to who anyone (including the person themselves) thinks is male and thinks is female, is by reference to genetics.

If you don't believe this to be true, please describe what makes a woman without any reference to any gender stereotypes or any physical attributes which can be found in the normal distribution overlap between males and females.

Edited

@totino

Still waiting for your definition of a woman, totino.

OP posts:
murasaki · Yesterday 18:32

Hang on, did some one say that Caitlin Jenner has always been a woman?

Shark well and truly jumped. I have never read such stupidity in my life.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 18:34

I’m not sure I buy the earnestness entirely.

BackToLurk · Yesterday 18:34

murasaki · Yesterday 18:32

Hang on, did some one say that Caitlin Jenner has always been a woman?

Shark well and truly jumped. I have never read such stupidity in my life.

I’m not sure even Caitlin believes that.

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:36

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · Yesterday 08:09

You are confusing 'female' with 'woman'. Female is a sex category. Woman is both a sociological & sex category because of social associations.

The heart of your "social construct" of women is gender stereotyping that socially advanced societies reject.

But they don't really on the whole because if they did they wouldn't continue to perpetuate them by expressing sex typical behaviours & most men & women do this to some degree. That you are in denial of this reality doesn't do your credibility much justice particularly given its a centrepiece of gender critical feminism. Do you even understand your own ideology?

Woman is a sex category.

Only in fantasy sociological theorising land is “woman” a social category.

In the real world of normal English usage, it is the word that evolved in English over hundreds of years for the adult human female.

Other languages have also evolved equivalent words for adult human males and females.

Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 18:36

Hasn’t Caitlin said that transwomen shouldn’t compete in female sport categories? In which case, Caitlin knows he’s not a woman even now, let alone ‘always been a woman’.

xye · Yesterday 18:36

BackToLurk · Yesterday 18:34

I’m not sure even Caitlin believes that.

Who gave birth to Caitlin’s 6 children? There were three wives. Did they produce the sperm or the eggs?

Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 18:41

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:36

Woman is a sex category.

Only in fantasy sociological theorising land is “woman” a social category.

In the real world of normal English usage, it is the word that evolved in English over hundreds of years for the adult human female.

Other languages have also evolved equivalent words for adult human males and females.

Yes. ‘Woman’ is just the human equivalent of ‘doe’, ‘ewe’, ‘sow’, ‘lioness’, ‘vixen’ etc.

Mammals are either male or female, so the words ‘male’ and ‘female’ can be used for any mammals. But different species of mammals have their own nouns for the males and females of the species. ‘Girl’ and ‘woman’ are the ones that pertain to female humans.

murasaki · Yesterday 18:41

Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 18:36

Hasn’t Caitlin said that transwomen shouldn’t compete in female sport categories? In which case, Caitlin knows he’s not a woman even now, let alone ‘always been a woman’.

He did. While continuing to attend his male golf club.

Rollingpinofdoom · Yesterday 18:41

totino · Yesterday 18:06

Women are real and we fucking rule.

We have the words cis and trans to acknowledge that there's a difference. No, I'm not 1:1 to a trans woman. But I'm not 1:1 to all cis women, either. I really do think there's enough room for all of us but I know you don't agree.

So again, what do women and TIM have in common thst mean both should be classed as women?

Rollingpinofdoom · Yesterday 18:45

Mouldemort · Yesterday 18:22

@Helleofabore cis means not trans. It's not that complicated.

So using cis just reinforces to “transwomen” thst they are not women doesn’t it? If cis means same side of then trans means opposite. The opposite of woman is man so therefore youre just confirming TW are not W.

xye · Yesterday 18:46

Rollingpinofdoom · Yesterday 18:45

So using cis just reinforces to “transwomen” thst they are not women doesn’t it? If cis means same side of then trans means opposite. The opposite of woman is man so therefore youre just confirming TW are not W.

So logical, thank you.

TheKeatingFive · Yesterday 18:46

Rollingpinofdoom · Yesterday 18:41

So again, what do women and TIM have in common thst mean both should be classed as women?

I’d love to hear an answer to this.

if you’re going to tell me that the category of ‘cis women’ plus ‘transwomen’ is more important than the category of my actual sex …

Id like to know just one thing we’re supposed to have in common. Just one …

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:46

totino · Yesterday 17:38

It's not "Fuck it". I don't think you'll get a trans man to be a woman and you don't get a trans woman to be a man. You can put them back in the closet, but they do not belong in these categories. That, in my opinion, would be propping up a lie. I agree that sex and gender should ideally align, which is why I support transition.

Housing sex criminals will never be an easy topic, but I actually do think you can tell the difference between someone who is sincere and someone who lies out of desperation. Especially is a risk assessment is performed. It's also true that trans women as a group are not the ones committing rapes in prison, even if rapist trans women exist. (It's known that it's the male staff.) But for the record I believe cis women can also be rapists. And they are also in prison.

You believe “cis” women can be rapists???

Not in the UK they can’t. They don’t have a penis.

We don’t make public policy based on what you believe as part of your incredibly strenuous efforts to wave away differences in sex offending between the sexes. Why don’t you want to believe the statistics?

Why are you so desperate to make excuses to get male people into female prisons? It’s really quite sad.

CreativeGreen · Yesterday 18:47

totino · Yesterday 18:06

Women are real and we fucking rule.

We have the words cis and trans to acknowledge that there's a difference. No, I'm not 1:1 to a trans woman. But I'm not 1:1 to all cis women, either. I really do think there's enough room for all of us but I know you don't agree.

And what is that difference?
”we fucking rule” - cringe libfem speak at its worst

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 18:48

CreativeGreen · Yesterday 18:47

And what is that difference?
”we fucking rule” - cringe libfem speak at its worst

My thoughts exactly. Like a parody! Titania McGrath.

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:53

totino · Yesterday 17:51

I don't think they're personality labels. Because yeah, we agree, being a woman requires no specific behavior or look or activity. The full range of human behaviors is open to both women and men.

Also understand that these two boxes are indeed neat and tidy, but I simply don't think they're sufficient. I don't think they give you the full picture. Trans people (to me) have a genuine natural variation of sex/gender and I think the big difference is, I don't think accommodating them is harmful or dangerous.

But what are “men” and “women” in your belief system then?

Trans people have no variation of sex. They are the sex they were born.

TheKeatingFive · Yesterday 18:54

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:46

You believe “cis” women can be rapists???

Not in the UK they can’t. They don’t have a penis.

We don’t make public policy based on what you believe as part of your incredibly strenuous efforts to wave away differences in sex offending between the sexes. Why don’t you want to believe the statistics?

Why are you so desperate to make excuses to get male people into female prisons? It’s really quite sad.

I think it’s a lot more than sad. The blitheness with which this poster is waving away women’s rights and basic safety precautions is shocking me to my core. It’s revolting

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:54

CreativeGreen · Yesterday 18:47

And what is that difference?
”we fucking rule” - cringe libfem speak at its worst

Eeek, sounds like a motivational speech from a teenager.

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 18:56

TheKeatingFive · Yesterday 18:54

I think it’s a lot more than sad. The blitheness with which this poster is waving away women’s rights and basic safety precautions is shocking me to my core. It’s revolting

Agreed, “sad” was polite. It is disgusting throwing vulnerable women under the bus in the name of a fantasy metaphysical belief system

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 19:01

murasaki · Yesterday 18:32

Hang on, did some one say that Caitlin Jenner has always been a woman?

Shark well and truly jumped. I have never read such stupidity in my life.

It’s repeating a simplistic religious mantra that doesn’t bar even a cursory questioning.

The trans identified person was always, in some completely unevidenced and inexplicable way that has nothing to do with their body, the opposite sex.

Only a young child could believe this is literally true.