Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

How would one know if one were 'cis' or 'trans'? When would it be relevant?

The Suzie Izzard thing is amusing because yeah she used to talk about "girl mode" and "boy mode", but a couple of years later and she's just Suzie now. Personal journeys are messy.

Though I did know a nonbinary person who did have "boy mode" and "girl mode" days. It's not for me but the way they explained it made sense to me.

EDIT: I don't know Frank Maloney but yeah, Caitlyn Jenner was also always a woman. Women can be dicks (as well as have them, occasionally).

“Cis” is a meaningless in group jargon word for your fringe ideology. There is only one sex of woman. You can disagree obviously, just like you can think the Earth is flat and you’ll fall off the end.

"It's also true that trans women as a group are not the ones committing rapes in prison, even if rapist trans women exist. (It's known that it's the male staff.) But for the record I believe cis women can also be rapists. And they are also in prison."

This is also at best mixing fallacy with misinformation, at worst is more misinformation.

There are male people with transgender identities who have committed rape in prisons when they have been housed with female people in the USA , I believe. There are certainly male inmates with transgender identities that have been sexually abusive towards female inmates in other countries across the world too.

It is not to be dismissed as 'it's known that it's the male staff'. Yes, male staff do attack and abuse female inmates. But it would be incorrect and misleading to claim that it was only male staff and to declare that no male inmate with a transgender identity is a risk of harming female inmates.

And female people can sexually abuse other female people. This is known. Including it in that paragraph is just more distraction like the ''it's known that it's the male staff' was there for distraction.

The issue is, why are female inmates put at added risk of harm by including any male inmate in their prison estate?

Yes, they are already at risk from male staff and other female inmates. But why do they have to have this added risk?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113

Alex's understanding of 'trans' seems a bit different to yours, @totino

Is Alex wrong? lying?

Now she is “blurring the lines” of gender to create safe spaces for people who might have never realised they could break out of standard gender binaries

I definitely want to break out of standard gender binaries, and I reckon a lot of other women do. ('Feminists', you might call them.)

How can you tell?

How do you propose this is judged? Who does it and under what criteria?

And what do you say to the women who suffer when it goes wrong?

He won a medal in an event that wasn’t open to women at the time - do you think he should give it back?

@totino “Women can be dicks (as well as have them, occasionally”

In what universe do some women have a penis? Bruce Jenner fathered his children. He didn’t carry and give birth to them.

Cis is a meaningless term because the term includes any male person who has a DSD yet has a body that is **formed around the production of small gametes that has any degree of sensitivity to any of the testosterone that body produces.
Using this word, cis, then means there is no word left for female people.

Because even male people are now saying they are also ‘female’ . When ^^ female means only a person of the sex category where that person's body has been formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether the body does, has or ever will produce those large gametes. ie that requires the presence of ovaries or ovarian tissue - never testes. This has also recently been the basis of the new IOC policy too,

(from the IOC policy:

This is under the definitions section:
Sex: Either of the two categories, Male or Female, into which humans are divided according to their reproductive biology.

Biological Female (Female): An individual who, regardless of their legal sex or gender identity, experienced female sex development usually based on their XX-chromosomes, ovaries, and estrogenic hormones.

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/International-Olympic-Committee/EB/policy/policy-on-the-protection-of-the-female-category-english.pdf )

In fact, we now have examples of many male people declaring that they are female people. So even the word for female has become meaningless in that sense.

But 'cis' is a* *word that was repurposed from its original usage and is meaningless for the purpose of discussing female people in its current usage. It has been used in academic papers as well in an attempt at using inclusive language which then renders the papers meaningless because the term is not describing a unique grouping of human bodies, even when it claims to be doing just that.

To see how this works, we have been told that 'girl' and 'woman' both now include:
1 Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **.
2 Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.
3 And any person who has a female body ^^.

Under the label of 'girl' and 'woman', extreme transgender activists have been telling us for years that those labels break down into two types of girls or women:

Cis and Transwomen/transgirls.

These terms mean:
Cis
= (1) Male person who has been incorrectly registered as a female at birth, but has a male body **
and
= (3) Any person who has a female body^^

Trans
= (2) Any male person has now claimed a transgender identity using those labels.
Therefore there is no unique word to mean female people who have a body ^^ formed around the production of large gametes.

Cis is meaningless as a unique description for female people and it always was. It is also misogynistic because it leaves female people with no unique word for their needs.

And that is not even covering the discussion about forcibly categorising someone to believe in gender identity when they don’t, which is what the use of ‘cis’ forces.

Great! If only I had know that it were possible for a woman to father children or win an a gold medal in the men's Olympic decathlon.

Life would have been so much easier!!!!!

Blast. Just realised that I am one of the other kind of women - the ones that need sex specific rights.

I am looking forward to hearing about the test. At long last!!!

woohoo! Someone can link us up to the test for telling which male person is really transgender and which one isn't!

I am hoping that we can send the link out to the world so that there is finally a tool to be used.

If Caster Semenya is a 'cis woman' then I suggest that the term 'cis' is meaningless.

I also made this point.

@Helleofabore cis means not trans. It's not that complicated.

I refuse to bow down to the trans demand that I should add a word in order to describe myself as a woman who was born female.

Women are born female.

If trans people want to distinguish people who were born female from people who weren't but feel female let them add trans to their description of themselves.

I am a woman. Not a CIS woman.

Exactly this.

Caster Semenya is not a woman at all. Caster has Y chromosome.

‘Cis’ and ‘trans’ are made up nonsense.

Woman and man work perfectly well, thank you!

CIS is a completely unnecessary word. Woman means born female.

Shall we see if the poster who is arguing that 'cis' is a meaningful word believes that Caster Semenya is a female athlete?

According to Alex above, trans is about 'breaking out of standard gender binaries', so I would guess that most posters on the feminism board are trans. Alex has been a Stonewall ambassador, so I assume is an authority.

No it doesn’t. Because if that was the case, a “trans woman” would be an adult female human being who identifies as a man, wouldn’t she? What you mean, is you want to impose your divisive, unconvincing, quasi-religious ideological stance by default.

no?

It actually does not mean this when you understand how it has been used.

I am SOOOOOO excited though that we are going to perhaps finally get a link to the test that can be used to work out who is genuinely transgender and who is not!!!!

“Cis woman”: female - actual woman

”trans woman”: male - man, not a woman, faux woman