Views on androgen insensitivity and women’s sport participation

[Lexibletheflexible]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOugAoGDbo6/?hl=en

It's about androgen insensitivity.

Okay, so I come across this person on my reels during the night. Probably due to discussions here and the algorithm and Big Brother.

I also tried to do a search here but nothing come up about previous discussions. Might be the imperfect search functions.

Now unusually for me, I will give my actual position on what I'm about to say and ask.

I don't think trans women should compete with women in the majority of single sex sports events past a childhood grassroots level. Where it really doesn't matter, we should probably have those sports be mixed at a professional level to increase participation but that's another subject entirely.

When it comes to DSDs and the like, I think things like normal or average hormonal levels need to play a part in determining their participation. The athletes most discussed in here, I agree (somewhat reluctantly) they shouldn't compete with women. Reluctantly just because I think they are good athletes/people and haven't acted maliciously.

The person in the clip I have shown above, however, I don't think they are quite the same. I wouldn't begrudge them a space on a women's sports team, though from the sounds of it, they might not be very good, anyway.

I'm actually not sure if this is the clip of them I've watched as I watched them on Facebook. They talk about several of their aunts having the same disorder so they had some idea they would vs most people who have it not knowing until they get older.

So I guess I'm asking for people's opinions on this person and disorder when it comes to single sex spaces and sports.

An interesting report on a 46XY CAIS woman who gave birth to twins with the aid of hormone therapy and a donor egg:

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-2933979/amp/I-born-no-womb-ve-given-birth-twins-says-mother-feared-no-man-want-me.html

It seems as if she also had some AMH-related malfunction causing her to retain a rudimentary uterus: such cases will be very rare!

She does look tall.

That is not CAIS - Antimüllerian Hormone is not an androgen so people with CAIS are impacted by it. I’ve seen enough false reports on social media, and mainstream reports of ‘men’ being pregnant.

The article states that she has CAIS. If she only had PMDS she would be an otherwise normal man with normal male genitalia. It was my speculation that she also has a degree of PMDS, to explain the retained rudimentary uterus.

This site says Haynes has Swyer Syndrome

https://secondtypewoman.info/swyer.htm

That seems much more likely. Though is they are claiming different DSDs to different media locations then I am sceptical about the whole thing. There have been a number of activists on SM that have claimed one DSD then switched to another when it has been pointed out their story is flawed,

Well, that's confusing! Don't women with Swyer Syndrome have a normal uterus and fallopian tubes (and no gonads)? What caused hers to regress, if not AMH?

No, they are often small or underdeveloped in Swyee Syndrome until treated with hormones. Which matches the supposed treatment given here.

I’ve no idea whether it’s accurate. It’s a bit of an odd site. It’d be interesting to see if they appear in the medical press anywhere.

Well, they normally just remain child-sized rather than almost impossible to detect. But it sounds like her doctors really let her down. She should have been having at least œstrogen from about age sixteen, and why on earth did they tell her she was really male? Women with SS don't have a functional SRY gene or testes: they are not male. And before the hormone therapy she would not have matured physically - for example no breast development, which must have been devastating for her. What were her doctors thinking?

Thank you, @Imdunfer , that was all fascinating.

I've been looking a bit more and in humans CAIS is associated with more body fat, not less.

But the mouse model shows that androgens are definitely not the only thing that makes males different from females and other effects were already known in humans which stem directly from having or not having a Y chromosome.

Imo, the only fair and safe measure for female sport is the complete absence of a Y chromosome.

Girls with CAIS do not have a uterus or ovaries.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

Girls do not have CAIS.

Apologies, I worded it incorrectly.

Interesting thread.

I have every sympathy for the woman in the op as an individual. She does indeed look quite female unless you looking for differences. It also looks like she races frequently, presumably at the amateur level and in the female category. It would be hard for her, as an individual who feels herself female in every way and lives her life as a female to be told no more racing in the female category.

However, at the societal level, I’d be deeply concerned if we stopped using xx as our differentiator. It doesn’t make sense to treat the NHS or Prof Winston as the final and unchallengeable arbitrator. Medical knowledge is imperfect and subject to human bias and the limits of human understanding and scientific research. Just consider the way the DSM-5 changes in each iteration.

There’s every possibility that claiming those with CAIS are female, do so for social reasons.

So his uncles also had a DSD, leading to testing at 4? Are you really gullible enough to think that none of these male relatives particular DSDs were ever noticed until he was 4? What is far more plausible is that the parents already were aware of potential chances of any son they had being born with the same DSD, chose to ignore it until at 4 years old a doctor or nurse advised getting him screened. As his parents had treated him as female since birth they chose to continue to do so. They have an awful lot to answer for.

If you watch the video, you'll find that their aunts were diagnosed as teens when they didn't start their periods. That is how her mother had some idea that her own children could inherit the condition, so she was checked at the age of 4.

If you actually use the sources provided instead of just trying to attack this woman, you'll not look so hateful.

The reason why nothing was suspected at birth is because they have typical female external genitalia, so they knew that they likely have CAIS vs PAIS and nothing needs to be done until they are older.

Why would you raise someone who needs to pee sitting down because they were born with a vulva and urethra as a boy? Why would you raise someone who is going to receive sexual pleasure from a typical clitoris as a boy? Why would you raise someone who is going to grow breasts in puberty alongside their natal vulva and vagina as a boy?

That would be very confusing for them. Even if they are attracted to women, the women will have to be women who are attracted to natal female bodies on the "men" they date. If they're attracted to men, it would have to be men who are gay or bi and don't mind their female bodied partner identifying as male.

You speak as if this family acted manipulatively and maliciously to "trick" the world instead of just being a family who have a inherited condition. It's so strange.

I agree completely LTF, there's no reason whatsoever why that particular person shouldn't have been raised as a girl and it's odd to think otherwise.

@Imdunfer

I also don’t have an issue with these kids being raised as girls. I don’t think that means that they necessarily get to compete against natal women in the Olympics, though. You can still have a more robust position on what the female category looks like, based on what we understand to provide clarity and fairness at this point and only expand the female category from XX if and only if we have concrete scientific evidence that is capable of resolving any individual case.

This exactly. I have no problem with this person using women's loos (I know others might and that is their right) and I think it would be pretty awful to force them into using the men's. But sport should be a complete absence of a Y chromosome to compete as a women, imo.

I'm usually pretty hard line and absolutely in favour of grass roots sport being protected, not just top level but I am inclined to think with CAIS there is probably a case for inclusion at recreational level but exclusion for competition level unless there is definitive evidence of absolutely no advantage.