Views on androgen insensitivity and women’s sport participation

[Lexibletheflexible]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DOugAoGDbo6/?hl=en

It's about androgen insensitivity.

Okay, so I come across this person on my reels during the night. Probably due to discussions here and the algorithm and Big Brother.

I also tried to do a search here but nothing come up about previous discussions. Might be the imperfect search functions.

Now unusually for me, I will give my actual position on what I'm about to say and ask.

I don't think trans women should compete with women in the majority of single sex sports events past a childhood grassroots level. Where it really doesn't matter, we should probably have those sports be mixed at a professional level to increase participation but that's another subject entirely.

When it comes to DSDs and the like, I think things like normal or average hormonal levels need to play a part in determining their participation. The athletes most discussed in here, I agree (somewhat reluctantly) they shouldn't compete with women. Reluctantly just because I think they are good athletes/people and haven't acted maliciously.

The person in the clip I have shown above, however, I don't think they are quite the same. I wouldn't begrudge them a space on a women's sports team, though from the sounds of it, they might not be very good, anyway.

I'm actually not sure if this is the clip of them I've watched as I watched them on Facebook. They talk about several of their aunts having the same disorder so they had some idea they would vs most people who have it not knowing until they get older.

So I guess I'm asking for people's opinions on this person and disorder when it comes to single sex spaces and sports.

Define for me what your womanhood is then without reference to any gender stereotypes.

And some people think a man magically becomes a woman when he puts on a dress.

So you’re ok with males in female sports. Gotcha. Why do you believe women are not allowed sports and spaces free from men?

No, I don't believe people with CAIS are male

Because they don’t have a penis?

Found it....

Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time.

IT IS ONE OF MY FUNCTIONS. I HAVE TO OBEY THE RULES.

‘Why? They’re breaking the rules!’

BENDING THEM. THEY HAVE FOUND A LOOPHOLE. I DO NOT HAVE THAT KIND OF IMAGINATION

It was like Jason and the Battle for the Stationery Cupboard, Susan told herself. You soon learned that ‘No one is to open the door of the Stationery Cupboard’ was a prohibition that a seven-year-old simply would not understand. You had to think, and rephrase it in more immediate terms, like, ‘No one, Jason, no matter what, no, not even if they thought they heard someone shouting for help, no one – are you paying attention, Jason? – is to open the door of the Stationery Cupboard, or accidentally fall on the door handle so that it opens, or threaten to steal Richenda’s teddy bear unless she opens the door of the Stationery Cupboard, or be standing nearby when a mysterious wind comes out of nowhere and blows the door open all by itself, honestly, it really did, or in any way open, cause to open, ask anyone else to open, jump up and down on the loose floorboard to open or in any other way seek to obtain entry to the Stationery Cupboard, Jason!’

No, because they lack the ability to utilise testosterone and because medical experts have determined that those with CAIS are female

Once again you seem to be defining women as men who lack something. That is misogyny.

Why do you think you know more than medical experts when it comes to determining the sex of people with DSDs

They haven't though. They have determined that those with CAIS are males who failed to develop external male characteristics and closely resemble a female. It's not the same thing.

I quoted the NHS page that says people with CAIS are female.

I've stated what Prof Robert Winston has said is the way to determine sex - which would class CAIS as female.

‘Medical experts’ awarded a Nobel
prize for lobotomy.

So why do the NHS class them as male?

In 2004, his argument was that CAIS people develop entirely as a female.

But they don't . They have testes which no-one without a Y chromosome has. They produce testosterone at levels that no female produces. Whether they can use it or not doesn't alter that fact that no female produces testosterone in that quantity.

Male and female people do not have the same brains, male and female babies of 4 hours old behave differently. There is no current research into whether those differences are entirely related to androgen sensitivity.

Then, given that we are discussing these people being in women's sport, let's come to the crux of the matter.

The distinction between Complete and Partial AIS is a judgment call, there is no definition.

And as soon as you introduce judgement, you open the door to mistakes and worse to corruption.

And if Lin Yu-ting is a woman at 5 ft 9 when the average height for a Taiwanese woman of his age is 5ft 2, I'll eat my hat.

I think the term is that they butt hurt no one will believe them.

Im still waiting for posters to explain how they know better than the experts how to identify the sex of those with DSDs, specifically CAIS.

If you are under the belief that I think men can be women you could try looking at any of my posts over the last 6 years to see what I believe.

It's mostly the fact that I've always been outwardly female bodied. That part means that irrespective of who you are a human, other people see you as the girl/woman you are and treat you as such. So that means sexual harassment from men since childhood, it means that people make assumptions about your competence and skill in various areas, it means assumptions about who you are and what you desire.

People just use my outward body to determine those things. They dont need to know whether I can actualy carry a baby, they just need to know I have a vagina a man could penetrate. They don't confirm my chromosomes before making such assumptions, they just look at my breasts and decide. It has been that way my whole life because my natal body that people see is female.

It's those thing that have shaped my womanhood. Other things have shaped who I am as a person. But for me, it is living as a girl/woman from birth with the anatomy that means I can't feasibly use a urinal that has defined my womanhood. It's how other people respond to me because of that natal body that has been pivotal in my journey as woman.

The only time I've been free from any of that has been the rare times people have assumed I was male for one reason or the other.

And in relation to another post you made, I see next to no connection between someone with CAIS and someone being trans. Trans people have changed their bodies in order to have the same external body parts as I do. Someone with CAIS has not. They were born with a vulva and clitoris. They didn't have one made out of their natal penis at some point in their (typically adult) life. They didn't live their whole childhood with the whole world seeing them as their chosen gender because they had the typical anatomy of that sex.

So for me, there is no link or comparison between someone trans and someone With CAIS. It doesnt matter how young they transitioned or whether they took PBs. This thread is about people with CAIS.

The ability to use the testosterone is pretty central to whether it gives any sporting advantage. It's like having lots of water in a sealed container that cannot be opened and then arguing that there is no way you could become dehydrated because you have water. Even though you cannot actually access it to drink.

That testosterone becomes oestrogen and leads to things like breast development in puberty.

Fair enough, call me slow but I didn't actually realise that you had DSD. I'm really sorry for the problems that it causes you.

And in relation to another post you made, I see next to no connection between someone with CAIS and someone being trans. Trans people have changed their bodies in order to have the same external body parts as I do. Someone with CAIS has not. They were born with a vulva and clitoris. They didn't have one made out of their natal penis at some point in their (typically adult) life. They didn't live their whole childhood with the whole world seeing them as their chosen gender because they had the typical anatomy of that sex.

So for me, there is no link or comparison between someone trans and someone With CAIS. It doesnt matter how young they transitioned or whether they took PBs. This thread is about people with CAIS.

The connection is that the trans lobby, in spite of being begged not to, use people with DSD in an attempt to muddy the waters about male and female in order to achieve their objectives to allow men to complete in women's sport.

I'm really sorry but as soon as you introduce competing in women's sport you are into trans territory.

And I'm really sorry again, but as soon as you allow something where the completeness of the the androgen insensitivity is a matter of judgment, then women's sport is at risk.

Do you think Lin Yu-ting's androgen insensitivity is complete? He is taller than the average Taiwanese man of his age and a full 7 inches taller than the average Taiwanese woman.

No I don't have a DSD, but if course as a woman I also have external female body parts like the woman in the video I sent. So we would have had many similarities growing up as people with vaginas and breasts ie growing up.into women from a girl. When I was 9 and a man made kissing noises to me in the street, he didnt stop to confirm I was XX, or had ovaries, he made a solid guess that I have a vagina by the way I looked and thought I was a good target for his sexual attention. The same thing would have happened to her.

And no, you aren't in trans territory when talking about CAIS unless you are unable to understand the difference between "born with a vulva and other female external body parts" and "surgically created a vagina from their natal penis as part of their transition". Or you cannot comprehend "totally insensitive to testosterone so unable to even process the levels that I, a natal woman, benefits from".

"Do you think Lin Yu-ting's androgen insensitivity is complete? He is taller than the average Taiwanese man of his age and a full 7 inches taller than the average Taiwanese woman."

I wouldn't have thought so by looking but people can be taller than average. Women can also be as muscular as she is. I'd trust the science that categorises CAIS vs PAIS. If they've ruled out some people they previously admitted then there is no reason to think they'd make allowances for one.

I dont think the eyes of layman like us is at all relevant to the truth. And as she is permitted to compete in the female category, i think you're being offensive and hostile by labelling her a man. I think it speaks poorly of your character.

That argument only works if it is only androgen use that causes every difference between men and women and I'm not certain that has been established.

The statistical over representation of people with CAIS at elite levels of sport would suggest not.

I can see how some people would argue that the height advantage, for example, is because of the lack of ability to use testosterone and that women can be born with similar height advantages through hormone irregularities. But that isn't, for me, a valid argument because in the case of CAIS people the height advantage arises directly because they have male genes.

You define yourself as a woman because you look like a woman and it wasn't achieved surgically and men hit on you. That would leave out 1 in 5000 girls born without a vagina, for a start.

I'm afraid it isn't your or my decision whether a discussion of CAIS women in sport goes into trans activist territory. It is firmly there.

And until CAIS/PAIS become a matter of a definitive scientific measurement instead of a judgement call, it's going to remain there.

Lin Yu Ting is clearly a man 🤣. We are in cuckoo land territory if anyone thinks otherwise. The entire reason he was identified as having XY chromosomes and being a man is because someone said “she looks like a man, we should check her chromosomes”. If he looked like a woman no one would have thought to check.

Which is was true genuine CAIS looks like. Which is why sex screening is important. To pick those with advantage that isn’t just testosterone driven. What will happen with this remains to be seen.