If passport says female

[SpringCalling]

I feel like i should know the answer but I don’t! My friends’ trans son has changed their name by deed poll and has a new passport where sex is now shown as female. They do not pass as a woman. Currently they hardly leave home but hopefully that will gradually change over time. I am just wanting to know if the passport change means they can access female only facilities if challenged? Asking as their mental health is so fragile I’d think they need to be well prepared for whatever is the likely outcome.

Single sex services and spaces are - as per the FWS Supreme Court case of April last year - about biology.

Passing, paperwork, and internal feelings are all irrelevant.

Changing the passport to say F just indicates the gender that the person identifies as, that's all. A assport saying F does not prove anything.

When services are provided for males and females separately, that is on the basis of sex, which does not change, and a male person with a female gender and a passport saying F is still make sex. It's generally accepted by most people that if it would cause a male person distress to ha e to use the mens loos then that's an accessibility need and it's perfectly reasonable touse the unisex accessible loo which is there for the needs of a very wide range if accessibility needs, not all of which are physical needs and they are not just for people with mobility issues.

Sex and gender are two different things. Gender is controlled by the individual. Sex cannot be changed and for this individual will always be male. There is no hormone level, surgical procedure or official document that can change that. Making peace with that, whilst also living as liberated from the chains of gender and expressing femininity in clothes, hair, mannerisms, name etc, is the combination that will be healthiest and lead to the greatest achievable contentment

Ok, thanks. I thought this may be the case but wanted to be sure. I’m not sure they know this however so I want to help get them to a place where finding this out in the real world doesn’t set them back massively from a mental health POV. It’s all such a shame, I fear all the focus on trans has prevented necessary work being done on other underlying issues.

If in the UK then no, he can't. He remains a man for all legal purposes, regardless of passport, driving licence, GRC.... The whole point of the FWS Supreme Court case was to decide whether transpeople with a GRC should be treated as the opposite sex in respect of targets for gender representation on public boards in Scotland. The conclusion was that no, they shouldn't, and "woman" in law describes biological women only, not men who want to be women. Self-ID was never the law in this country, and the Supreme Court case affirmed that a GRC did not change the meaning of "woman" either.

The ruling extends beyond board representation, and applies to toilets, changing rooms, sports, jobs advertised as women-only, and numerous other things. The fact that some transwomen ignore the law and use women's provision anyway doesn't change this.

I do genuinely sympathise, but you aren't responsible for bringing this person through this situation. It's your friend's child and your role is mainly limited to supporting your friend while she supports her child. Both you and your friend need to have a solid understanding that compassion and support do not require believing the fantasies of someone who isn't mentally stable. You can be grounded in factual reality whilst still helping someone who desperately wants you to believe something that isn't true. A life spend hiding from the real world will not be happy.

Under the Equality Act everyone has the right to equal treatment and with the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment this young person has legal protection from every kind of illegal discrimination. A fundamental principle under the act is that generally the default is that all services and opportunities are open to everyone so the vast majority of things have no barriers to them. Where there is a legitimate reason for something to be single-sex, that's allowed, and males who identify as women do not get access to female single-sex things because their sex is still male. If they aren't rational enough to accept that then they aren't ready to leave the house yet.

"Sex and gender are two different things. Gender is controlled by the individual. Sex cannot be changed and for this individual will always be male."

This is why it's particularly daft to change things like sex on documents such as passports, because passports record the holder's the sex not the holder's gender (identity).

Well yes it's daft, but unless the government passes legislation to require all passports henceforth to be an accurate statement of sex (which I don't think they will) the fact is that passports with fictional untrue information have been issued, therefore a passport is not a reliable or meaningful document to prove or disprove what sex someone is.

No regardless of what his passport says, he's still a male, so he can't enter female only spaces.
When the politicians allowed the sex category on passports to be changed to anything the person wanted they rendered the document useless for verification purposes. Just like birth certificates, driving licences and all the other documents that could once be relied upon for ID, all meaningless now.
Beyond me why he would want to change his passport considering how devalued the information on is, if he needs a bit of paper to prop up his delusions he's knows what he's telling himself is not true, so nothing will be enough.

Yes, I think this is true in many cases.

I’ve been out for coffee this am. I noticed that as well as the existing traditional loos, through one door then divided into men’s and women’s, there was a separate door with a sign saying ‘gender neutral toilet’. There is also one like that at the leisure centre where I swim. I’m a woman, I occasionally use it if I can’t be bothered going through the changing rooms to the Ladies. Let’s hope more of these start being available.

Cautious agree - but what's behind that door and what did it used to be? If they have put a gender neutral label on a room that contains just cubicles and shared sinks, and was previously a women's loo, then (a) that isn't compliant with building regs which requires unisex loos to have floor to ceiling enclosure and individual hand-wash facilities in each unit and (b) this action has reduced the provision for women - that's a detriment that could certainly be considered discriminatory if getting to a single sex loo is now a right pain.

But if it wasn't made that way then it's great! It's important for there to be some unisex facilities everywhere.

No cubicles, and separate from the ones marked for women and men. Both the ones I mentioned are one toilet and handbasin in a single, lockable room, just as you describe they need to be.

This young man may find travelling a bit of a shock if he gets outside the Anglosphere with his passport. There are many countries where they won't hide their incredulity when faced with an obvious male in possession of a female passport. They may find it highly suspicious, too, and might not be very kind about it.

I am glad you asked this question. There may be people reading this who did not realise you can change the sex on a passport by doing nothing. You don't need to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, even.

And I agree, this is probably going to mean he gets a lot more attention at border control, and that will not be pleasant if he is having mental health problems.

I hope he doesn't expect a woman to pat him down if he gets searched?

Under the Equality Act he is entitled not to be discriminated against, compared to other men. That means, if other men, who don't 'identify' as trans aren't allowed to go somewhere, do a job, or take part in a sport set aside for women, nor is he. Sorry if he's been misled about that.

I don’t want to derail this conversation but what was his thinking about changing his passport sex if he still looks like a man? This will presumably cause all sorts of problems at the borders in countries which have not had the same level of trans awareness raising that the U.K. has? Why add complications to the already stressful experience of foreign travel?

TBH very few men don't still look like a man, even when making an effort.

I think it was likely for validation. Although it was my friend, his mum, who did the paperwork so I wanted to check the situation so then I can see if she understands it correctly. They’re not likely to travel anytime soon as they hardly leave the house.

It's generally accepted by most people that if it would cause a male person distress to ha e to use the mens loos then that's an accessibility need and it's perfectly reasonable touse the unisex accessible loo

That, frankly, is just as offensive as people insisting that TWAW & thus most women don’t mind TW using female loos.

The government don’t think it’s an appropriate solution - their 2024 Equality Impact Assessment on toilet provision specifically refers to it as a “misuse” of accessible toilet provision.

The provision of accessible toilets in the UK is already inadequate - Euan’s Guide Access Survey Results (2024) are one way to illustrate that (73% of respondents have come across a disabled toilet they’ve been unable to use; & while 22% of respondents who use Changing Places Toilets find them easy to locate, 79% do not!). Another is to consider that the £30 million investment in Changing Places Toilets promised in 2021 was enough to build 483 toilets. The number of people who need access to a Changing Places Toilet in order to go out for any length of time is approximately 1.08% of the population; clearly the number of people who need to use an accessible toilet because eg they’re a wheelchair user/use a walker/need the grab rails/have to change a colostomy or urostomy bag/will have a meltdown at the hand-dryers + door-slamming is vastly VASTLY greater. New developments - & redevelopments - of a certain size now having to include CPTs is progress; but it’s slow progress.

What disabled people absolutely do not need is yet more people making free with already-inadequate facilities.

@RosaMayBillinghurst I'm sorry you feel offended. I am one of the people who need to use accessible loos - I lost half my digestive tract to cancer and I won't describe the consequences but I have plenty of understanding of the issues you raise, It's just that I don't put every single aspect of everything I know or think on a subject into every post I put on mumsnet.

In case it isn't clear, then yes it is obvious that part of this furore settling down to a new normal needs to be an expansion of the availability of accessible and unisex loos. Provision of accessible loos is absolutely inadequate. What a weird and nasty reaction to have though, when a further form of accessibility need is identified, to say "this resource is too scarce, you can't have it" rather than "this resource is too scarce, building regulations need to force a higher provision"

Approximately 25% of the population have some sort of disability though not everyone with a disability needs an accessible loo - I can't find a reliable statistic but I would guess around half that figure or 13%ish. But obviously many of the reasons why people need an accessible loo also mean that we take longer. I was at a theatre last night where the provision had approximately 12 units for males (10 urinals 2 cubicles), 12 units for females (all cubicles) and one accessible loo. There was a long queue for the women, no queue at all for the men, and I was one of 3 queueing for the accessible loo but my wait took longer than if I'd been able to join the womens queue. I believe that the obligation needs to be on providers to devote more floorspace to womens loos than to mens, and also that a minimum of one third of the units provided should be accessible.

The number of trans-identifying people is less than 1% and only a small fraction of those will have a dysphoria reaction so intolerable that they can't bear to use the facilities for their sex - but if it would be damaging to the mental health of a person to have to face that conflict on a daily basis then I don't see that as any less worthy a need than my physical and practical needs for a different kind of toilet provision and the number of people affected will simultaneously be not an overwhelming addition to the ranks of those who already need accessible loos but also a high,profile addition whose needs are getting a lot of attention and this could be of wider benefit if the consequences are a wider and more reliable provision of accessible loos.

Being kind and decent to her will help. Transphobic violence is destroying so many trans women's lives.

it isn't being barred from women's facilities she fears. It's being attacked.

Kindness and decency includes being realistic and factual about expectations.

It is not realistic for this individual to expect or hope to be perceived as female.

It is quite realistic to expect to be able to live and interact with the world quite safely and openly with a trans identity and dressing and presenting in line with that. People really aren't that bothered mostly.

It's really difficult to get reliable disaggregated statistics when there have been so many years where the TRA lobby has been insisting that merely saying "male people cannot be female" is recorded as a hatred and people have had police visits for posting facts on twitteX - but in terms of safety the ordinary round of commuting, doing a job, doing the shopping and chores and all that, is perfectly safe. About 60% of victims of transphobic attacks are sex workers - which is not to say that such attacks are in any way acceptable or that the victims are to blame, but just that an individual who identifies as trans and is not planning to become a sex worker is probably a lot safer than they might otherwise be fearful of.

Your kindness can focus on helping build resilience - having the courage to go out into the world confidently claiming and embracing the right to reject gendered expectations is great. Expecting people to actually believe that someone who is clearly male is actually female is unrealistic, but there should be no shame in acknowledging and owning the fact of being a male who prefers to present according to feminine expectations. Resilience will include not letting the occasional sniggers get to you, they are part of the societal pressure towards gender conformity that created the whole realm of gendered division in the first place - if there were no sniggers, it would not be actually possible to be trans because there would be no expectations to reject.

The Equality Act enshrines a trans-identifying person's right not to be discriminated against and this is protection against less favourable treatment in employment, housing and access to services and opportunities. The FWS Supreme Court ruling confirmed this and upholds that trans identifying people have every right to exist and live their lives without fear. The clarification that was needed due to more than a decade of misinformation was just that the comparator for "less favourable treatment" is that a male who identifies as trans should not be in any worse a position than a male who does not identify as trans - rather than that they should have access to anything that is specifically for female people, whose rights to have female-only facilities and opportunities are also upheld and are not open to male people with a feminine gender identity any more than they are open to male people with any other kind of identity.

My teenage dd lived with that from the moment she got consistently catcalled in her school uniform. Fear of male violence is something all women live with and have done since the dawn of time. Why do TW have to be a special case?

@Screamingabdabz, in transreality that's female priviledge, whereas recognising that transreality is all in the LARPer's head is literal violence.

As a society we are serving these young people with poor mental health very badly by affirming their trans identities.

There are no other situations where we affirm someone’s delusions let alone provide medications and surgery, allowing them to damage their healthy bodies.

It’s hugely difficult for families, but affirmation is not going to put their loved ones on a path to long term health and happiness.

It's not kind to support a delusion which will make it harder to face and deal with what the real (mental health, autism) problems are, and harder to navigate life because he is pretending all the time.

It's not kind to women to expect us to absorb the rank sexism underlying gender ideology (we aren't a personality type or some clothes), nor give up our safety and privacy for someone who has given not thought to us at all because they are so bound up in themselves.