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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

206 replies

nauticant · 03/08/2026 18:00

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.
Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal and it was reported on 3 August 2026 that leave to appeal had been granted with an expectation that the appeal proceedings could take place in court early next year (2027).

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 60: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5461133-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-60 16 December 2025 to 8 January 2026

Thread 61: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

OP posts:
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8
YouCanCallMeMonster · Yesterday 12:12

Sugarplumfairycakes1 · 28/08/2026 18:53

I've restricted my use of exclaimation marks! (Sometimes, in an official capacity!)

Still the most ridiculous reason to doubt an expert witness....

I love an exclamation mark ❗️ it’s second place only to ellipses for me ….

poodlemum01 · Yesterday 12:46

when is the 3(10) hearing thingy and can someone explain what it is to me?

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 12:54

lcakethereforeIam · Yesterday 10:53

The despite the claim of 'contemporaneous' was utterly destroyed by Mr Borthwick but Kemp still claimed he found Upton to be credible and truthful. This is putting all the 'biological female' nonsense to one side.

Open lnjustice

fanOfBen · Yesterday 13:08

ProfessorBinturong · 28/08/2026 23:30

That's quite the list of 'wrong (alternatively, perverse)'. And a nice sprinkling of 'irrational' and 'nonsensical' for variety.

Any competent judge ought to cringe himself inside out reading such a list of failings. Whether they're ultimately upheld or not, simply the fact that the judgement left room for them to be reasonably argued is shockingly poor.

Yes, I particularly liked this very short Ground

Ground 11 – Harassment because of rejection of harassment: incorrect test and conclusion on causation
40.
The ET’s reasoning at Judgment, §1234 is nonsensical and cannot stand. If Grounds 3 and 4 above are upheld, it follows that the Tribunal’s finding that the acts in question were not because of C’s rejection of harassment cannot be sustained.

I think this might be lawyer-speak for "no, I can't even...", maybe with the second sentence tacked on because someone said "come on, we've got to have more than one sentence here". For reference para 1234 is this:

(xxvii) Did R1 subject C to the detriments referred to at subparagraphs (a)-(e) and (g) to (k) of issue 5 above because she had rejected R2’s harassment of her?
1234. In our view the answer to this question is also in the negative as there was no harassment of the claimant by the second respondent for the reasons given above. The claimant did not allege that she had rejected harassment until that claim was added by amendment, until which time it appears to us that the first respondent was unaware of that allegation, and there was no evidence we heard on which it could be said that the first respondent ought reasonably to have been aware of it. On that basis it appears to us that rejection of harassment cannot have been any part of the reason for the acts referred to. In our view the claimant has not proved primary facts from which the inference can be drawn. This claim is also dismissed accordingly.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 13:08

poodlemum01 · Yesterday 12:46

when is the 3(10) hearing thingy and can someone explain what it is to me?

We don't have a date for it, but it will be before the EAT hearing, which is expected to be in the first half of next year. Sandie's team applied for leave to appeal on 14 grounds. 13 of them have been approved and will go to the EAT. However, the judge refused to allow them to proceed with the allegation of bias. The rule 3(10) hearing will allow them to argue that they should be allowed to take the complaint of bias forward despite the initial refusal.

HydrangeaFig · Yesterday 13:09

poodlemum01 · Yesterday 12:46

when is the 3(10) hearing thingy and can someone explain what it is to me?

When you appeal to the Employment Appeal Tribunal, the sift judge will decide whether or not to let any or all of your grounds of appeal progress to an appeal hearing. If the sift judge doesn't allow one or more (or all) of your grounds of appeal to go ahead you have the chance to have the decision reconsidered by a different judge at an in-person hearing, called a rule3(10) hearing. It is just to decide if the ground(s) of appeal can go ahead or not. A second chance at the sift, as it were.

HydrangeaFig · Yesterday 13:24

Someone already answered while I was posting.
Where can the grounds of appeal be seen?

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 13:28

HydrangeaFig · Yesterday 13:24

Someone already answered while I was posting.
Where can the grounds of appeal be seen?

Linked in the Twitter post above.

Cars4Gov · Yesterday 14:37

Do we know why bias was rejected? Can a judge just dismiss a Ground without justification?

To restore confidence in the Judges I think it's important the allegation of bias is heard and if quashed a judge has to articulate why.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 14:45

Cars4Gov · Yesterday 14:37

Do we know why bias was rejected? Can a judge just dismiss a Ground without justification?

To restore confidence in the Judges I think it's important the allegation of bias is heard and if quashed a judge has to articulate why.

No, we don't know why the judge refused leave on ground 13 other than that he did not think it was arguable. He will have given written reasons, but we won't get to see them unless someone publishes them.

HydrangeaFig · Yesterday 16:21

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 13:28

Linked in the Twitter post above.

Thanks - found it. I will be interested to see what happens in the rule3(10) hearing.

Jacopo · Yesterday 19:22

Does anyone know if the hapless useless misogynist Sandy Kemp is still presiding over tribunals?

YourWatermelonship · Yesterday 19:45

wellnotexactly · Yesterday 09:59

That boils my piss to this day. He proved that Big Dr Ted’s evidence was tampered with and they basically openly accused him of bias?
I can’t believe they just moved on from that!

I agree, this was the most egregious part of the tribunal for me. We saw black-and-white, expert-certified evidence of fundamental dishonesty by Upton / harassment of Sandie but the judge and the panel seem to have gone "lalala" whilst covering their ears / eyes

Unbelievable

thirdfiddle · Yesterday 20:46

Phew, that pulls no punches. Brilliant news that 13 of the grounds are through to EAT.
The rejection of Ground 13 is interesting. As a lay person it's hard to see why it was not allowed. It's very much grounded in demonstrable, look-up-able facts. Can't help wondering if it comes down to we don't want to open this box or we might end up having to rerun the whole tribunal and nobody can face that. It would bring the findings of fact into question wouldn't it?

YourWatermelonship · Yesterday 21:15

As a lay person it's hard to see why it was not allowed

Yes, quite. I hope it doesn't mean that the legal profession is closing ranks around Big Sond.

In an ideal world judges would want to see the errors and the questions about the made up quotes flushed out and answered in a transparent way. We don't live in an ideal world though.

Igmum · Yesterday 21:20

Although earlier @prh47bridgesaid that he could imagine the others being a slam dunk and this one failing. Is it that the legal system is reluctant to condemn judges for bias or is there another reason? As a lay woman I see this as a slam dunk as well.

fanOfBen · Yesterday 21:24

Jacopo · Yesterday 19:22

Does anyone know if the hapless useless misogynist Sandy Kemp is still presiding over tribunals?

I have been vaguely watching for news that he's going to spend more time with his family, but haven't found anything yet. Tbh my faith in first-tier EJs has been severely shaken in recent years.

AnAutumnCrow · Yesterday 21:50

Jacopo · Yesterday 19:22

Does anyone know if the hapless useless misogynist Sandy Kemp is still presiding over tribunals?

Apparently, yes. I think someone said upthread.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 22:40

Igmum · Yesterday 21:20

Although earlier @prh47bridgesaid that he could imagine the others being a slam dunk and this one failing. Is it that the legal system is reluctant to condemn judges for bias or is there another reason? As a lay woman I see this as a slam dunk as well.

The test for bias was set in Porter v Magill. It is "Whether the fair-minded and informed observer, having considered the facts, would conclude that there was a real possibility that the tribunal was biased." This is regarded as a high bar, and it is difficult for us to judge as we are not what the courts would consider fair-minded. Apart from the occasional interloper, everyone on these threads supports Sandie. It is pretty common for people to think the tribunal is biased when it makes a decision they don't agree with. The question is whether someone with no views one way or the other would consider the tribunal biased rather than simply incompetent.

Robust questioning, evidence management and sharp remarks by a judge are all regarded as legitimate case management rather than evidence of bias.

Findings of bias are rare. I wouldn't personally say that this is the legal system closing ranks. In my view it is right that the bar for proving bias is high, so it is very difficult for any appellant to get over. We don't want an appeal to succeed simply on the grounds that the judge was a bit mean, or that the appellant doesn't agree with the outcome and therefore thinks the judge was biased.

One of the problems with finding this ET biased is that the judgment in Kelly v Leonardo came out before this one. Whilst it was not a binding precedent, the tribunal was entitled to regard it as persuasive. The EAT may therefore take the view that following that precedent was not evidence of bias.

Do I think this ET was biased? Yes, but I have to acknowledge that I am biased in favour of Sandie. Would a fair-minded and informed observer think it was biased? I don't know. To succeed on this ground, Sandie's legal team first need to persuade a judge to allow them to put this argument to the EAT, then they need to persuade the EAT that there was indeed apparent bias. They may be able to, but that is the ground that I think is least likely to succeed.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 22:43

Jacopo · Yesterday 19:22

Does anyone know if the hapless useless misogynist Sandy Kemp is still presiding over tribunals?

Yes, he is.

YourWatermelonship · Yesterday 23:12

Thanks @prh47bridge , your posts are always so informative

As a lay person I feel that "fair-minded" sounds quite subjective. I wonder if there is a legal definition of the term. I wonder if the anonymous mythical judicial colleague was fair-minded.

In terms of bias I am thinking about the fact that all the errors in the judgement were unfavourable to Sandie. What would the odds be of plain incompetence producing such an outcome? That's an objective measure.

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 23:31

@prh47bridge "One of the problems with finding this ET biased is that the judgment in Kelly v Leonardo came out before this one. Whilst it was not a binding precedent, the tribunal was entitled to regard it as persuasive. The EAT may therefore take the view that following that precedent was not evidence of bias."

The Kelly judgment came out on 3/12 and Peggie judgement on 8/12 with a weekend in between. Half-speed handwriting Kemp may technically have been entitled to 'follow' the precedent but it would be extraordinary to think he would have had time to go through that judgement with the panel, and then consult with his mystery colleague, and then finesse a 300+ page judgement, ready to be typed and checked and published in less than 3 working days time!

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 23:40

prh47bridge · Yesterday 22:40

The test for bias was set in Porter v Magill. It is "Whether the fair-minded and informed observer, having considered the facts, would conclude that there was a real possibility that the tribunal was biased." This is regarded as a high bar, and it is difficult for us to judge as we are not what the courts would consider fair-minded. Apart from the occasional interloper, everyone on these threads supports Sandie. It is pretty common for people to think the tribunal is biased when it makes a decision they don't agree with. The question is whether someone with no views one way or the other would consider the tribunal biased rather than simply incompetent.

Robust questioning, evidence management and sharp remarks by a judge are all regarded as legitimate case management rather than evidence of bias.

Findings of bias are rare. I wouldn't personally say that this is the legal system closing ranks. In my view it is right that the bar for proving bias is high, so it is very difficult for any appellant to get over. We don't want an appeal to succeed simply on the grounds that the judge was a bit mean, or that the appellant doesn't agree with the outcome and therefore thinks the judge was biased.

One of the problems with finding this ET biased is that the judgment in Kelly v Leonardo came out before this one. Whilst it was not a binding precedent, the tribunal was entitled to regard it as persuasive. The EAT may therefore take the view that following that precedent was not evidence of bias.

Do I think this ET was biased? Yes, but I have to acknowledge that I am biased in favour of Sandie. Would a fair-minded and informed observer think it was biased? I don't know. To succeed on this ground, Sandie's legal team first need to persuade a judge to allow them to put this argument to the EAT, then they need to persuade the EAT that there was indeed apparent bias. They may be able to, but that is the ground that I think is least likely to succeed.

Which is why I believe there needs to be a system for dealing with judicial incompetence separately from the appeal process.

As it stands there appears to be no real mechanism to deal with people who shouldn't be doing the job, or who need significant retraining.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 23:42

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 23:31

@prh47bridge "One of the problems with finding this ET biased is that the judgment in Kelly v Leonardo came out before this one. Whilst it was not a binding precedent, the tribunal was entitled to regard it as persuasive. The EAT may therefore take the view that following that precedent was not evidence of bias."

The Kelly judgment came out on 3/12 and Peggie judgement on 8/12 with a weekend in between. Half-speed handwriting Kemp may technically have been entitled to 'follow' the precedent but it would be extraordinary to think he would have had time to go through that judgement with the panel, and then consult with his mystery colleague, and then finesse a 300+ page judgement, ready to be typed and checked and published in less than 3 working days time!

True. But still, where multiple ETs come up with similar (albeit incorrect) decisions on the same points of law in a short period, ETs having a common incorrect understanding of the law would be considered more likely than them all being biased. So I still think the existence of Kelly v Leonardo makes a finding of bias against this ET less likely.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 23:51

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 23:40

Which is why I believe there needs to be a system for dealing with judicial incompetence separately from the appeal process.

As it stands there appears to be no real mechanism to deal with people who shouldn't be doing the job, or who need significant retraining.

No, you cannot completely separate them. We cannot have a situation where a judge is disciplined for incompetence when the appeal courts have not considered the case. What would happen if a judge was disciplined for incompetence on the basis of a judgment which was subsequently upheld by the Supreme Court? Only the courts can decide whether the judge got it right. Having a situation where the Judicial Office for Scotland and the JCIO could second guess the courts would lead to chaos.

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