UK radical feminists; what to do?

[RealRoseCritic]

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

I know that if I ask the sailing club wtf they’re doing l’ll be told all about ‘gender identity’ but surely it’s as bollox as believing a religion? When someone asked surely transwomen know their chromosomes are still male, even if they say they believe otherwise it’s just like a religion. You know deep down that what you say you believe is true simply isn’t, because science, but you say you believe it anyway?

Just as no one can come up with anything that JK Rowling has said that’s transphobic, can anyone come up with any proof that ‘gender ideology’ isn’t a pile of made up shit?

Well it can't call itself a women's sailing club if it does that, so I hope it has changed its name to reflect all the men, whatever they look like, that it now welcomes.

I think technically a 'cis' woman is a woman who gender ideologists believe identifies as a woman - whether she actually does or not.

Unless you're not in the UK, of course.

gender ideology is so incoherent it is a pointless activity to try and make sense of it.

True, but it's always worth a push back.
In order to be a 'trans woman', one must be male, correct?
How to ascertain that the male in question identifies as a woman?
They say they do, okay.
Any man saying he's a woman is a woman, because she says so.
Does this mean all men can join the ladies' club, on utterance of the words?
Your husband, my husband, the chairman of the mens' club, the janitor ...
So it's basically a mixed-sex club with a four-word passphrase.
So why bother with the passphrase?
No, I'm not trivialising trans identities.
I'm trying to establish what qualifies a male to join the ladies' club.
If it's just the passphrase, fair enough.
But we should recognise that membership's now open to both sexes.
Anyone who says the four words.
What other qualifiers could there be?
It's transphobic to gatekeep. We cannot interrogate male 'womanhood'.
Let's tell everyone the ladies' club is now open to men.
As long as they say the passphrase at some time, somewhere.
Cool, I'll tell my husband. And the men's chairman, the janitor &co.

To be fair, if your national law says utterance of the passphrase must be recognised as valid, few clubs would break it. It's still worth introducing logic, though, for the benefit of TWAW parrots. If it were my club, I'd then go very public with the news that we're now mixed-sex, on the small proviso that male members must have said the four special words at some point before joining (no witnesses necessary).

As this summer has reminded us, large fires start with small sparks.

Gendef ideology picks at the rights of women. But what if it picked at the rights of disabled people or black people, that you could merely identify into their minority. Would that be in any way acceptable? Of course not. There would be howls of outrage. So why do we let people identify into being a woman?

Misogyny. The only reason. Surely?

I never watched Little Britain at the time, now i get it.

Identifarians have been making small inroads to disabled and racial identities for many years, @Howlerhog. Rachel Dolezal was a bit of a setback, as her case started an international debate on what 'race' means and the validity of self-definition. These things prosper out of the public eye.

I would certainly not write it off, though. The transgender thing was pushing for decades before the GRA, and continued more or less unremarked for a further 20 years. My welfare forms have been asking since 2018 whether I identify as having disabilities and giving a choice of boxes to tick for my ethnic identity. I complained, obviously, and will do again if the next survey's the same.

Maybe we could strike a deal with France where they take a transwoman for every asylum seeker we receive.

If we said that society had to accept someone as black because they really felt they were, they put on an Afro wig and faked a Jamaican accent, that would be offensive to a black person. But ‘you’re a massive bigot’ you would be told. ‘They’re going to kill themselves because of your bigotry’ the black person is told. The sigh, roll their eyes and let them ‘identify’ as a black person.

Then they want to join your Caribbean social group because they ‘identify’ as black. ‘We’ve got to take them or you’re a bigot’ any complainants are told. Then instead of the group being for ‘black people’ or even ‘black people and those who identify as black’ your group is rebranded as for ‘those who identify as black’ and you feel booted out of your own group. Where’s the inclusion?

Those breastfeeding groups for men to feed babies chemicals from their nipples. Is that the same as say a perfectly healthy person turning up to a stoma support group just because he ‘identifies as’ someone with a stoma? No it’s actually worse than that. At least in joining a stoma support group he’s just being offensive. The breastfeeding guy is abusing a child as well.

It’s all so offensive. But as long as its only women being offended that’s fine apparently.

Then they want to join your Caribbean social group because they ‘identify’ as black. ‘We’ve got to take them or you’re a bigot’ any complainants are told. Then instead of the group being for ‘black people’ or even ‘black people and those who identify as black’ your group is rebranded as for ‘those who identify as black’ and you feel booted out of your own group. Where’s the inclusion?

Just on a point of accuracy, you can't have single-colour associations in the UK. So a club for Black people from the Caribbean isn't lawful.

A club for people from the Caribbean is, but it must admit white Caribbean people too, of whom there are many.

A lot of working class white lads from urban areas have already adopted Jamaican inspired dialect. Usually the chavvier lads. An example being 'Multicultural London English' (MLE) which is slowly replacing the Cockney dialect.

We've got a few lads at our plants who talk like this. "Whatcha saying, bruv?" etc.

It's them that usually get a bit butthurt when you take the piss as their badman ego seems a bit more fragile than the Jamaican guys. One of them was on the phone the other day sounding like he was a cast member from Top Boy. "Say no more, bruv. Me and the mandem are gonna link him later and it's gonna be long for him if he's still chatting shit. Swear down it'll be peak bro" etc.

I just popped my head around the door and said "wa'gwan Dushane. Soon come. We've got an aggs delivery" and he went bright red. 🤣 What a bellend lol. But it's an interesting development.

Yes, language change is fascinating, isn't it?
For a long while the prevailing wind here seems to have been (and perhaps still is) from America, but there are other cross-currents too.

Anyone remember the "I speak Jive" scene in the film Airplane?