UK radical feminists; what to do?

[RealRoseCritic]

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

No thanks, I have considered it but I don't think most would engage. I'll continue to just point out posters sex when I feel it's relevent. Like a dude asking if someone else is a dude and then saying his sex doesn't matter.

If you're really bothered about men posting on MN go and start another thread about it.

This. It seems there's a lot to be said about it and some of it is clearly quite important. So it warrants a thread of its own. This has turned into a derail.

Where did I say what posters can and can't post? I'm just responding to them, as I wish to, pointing out when they're a MAN. I explained why I and others think it matters, notably these male posters you're defending as contributing the same as the rest of us, don't wish to respond anytime a woman points out them hiding their sex makes them uncomfortable. SSS alluded upthread his wife is divorcing him because of internalised misogyny so perhaps he finds it hard to listen to women both offline and online unless he thinks it's relevant.

Cross-post. Oh well, I still think this is a derail.

Sorry it wasn't intended as a criticism of you. I very much appreciate your comments, they're very clear, concise and very on point. I agree with all the points you've made. 😁
My swipe was more because my perception is, which could be totally wrong, sometimes men who claim to be women posters always seem to react more to men telling them they're wrong, than posters they think are women doing so.

It's more to do with their idea that they on a women's forum and engaging with women, just like they are, and along comes a poster they perceive/know to be male and spoils the fantasy they're having of themselves having some sort of girly conflab. 🤮
I am more than happy for you to keep posting your very good comments, if they also act as an intrusion into their fantasy and show them that they are not just having a girly conflab then that's a plus. 👍

Someone else is welcome to start one of they feel strongly enough. I'd suggest the multiple posters taking issue with my reply to SSS are derailing more than my original query to SSS, if it matters so little I do wonder why some people are so bothered.

I think you have made your point, more than a few times and it feels you are just being argumentative now.

the fact that you keep going on about it is the derail.

Would you like the thread to just be a register of who's male? Or do you think a dedicated thread means male posters will actually answer for once why their preference to hide their sex trumps women's, especially assault victims engaging on the forum?.

FFS give it a rest @Irkeddancer!

Same here! I'm a Socialist with Communist leanings. I've been pushed further left because I've fallen out of love with the mainstream left parties (Labour, Lib Dems and Greens) but want nothing to do with the right. I used to be a staunch Lib Dem voter.

The Morning Star newspaper has run some good articles about women's rights. I don't agree with liberal feminism which sees nothing wrong with prostitution or surrogacy, seeing them as exploitation.

I think that's an unfair assessment. I've responded to people who have responded to me. You're unnecessarily joining in without input, to be argumentative which is far more derailing imo, if you don't want to derail - don't engage ? I was addressing only two posters specifically which were the two men, on the back of wondering why they ask if others are dudes so it was relevant to their post.

Ah yes basically telling a woman to shut up isn't derailing or filling up the thread at all. Seriously, stop simping for men, they don't need you to. If you have something to contribute, you can use your words better than that.

Give me a decent bloody answer that respects women and girls and doesn't throw them under the bus and I don't give a fuck about your sex.

If your response is shit, your sex may or may not be relevant - if it's a motivating factor in why you might be willing to throw women under the bus then yes it's worthy of comment.

It's about the subject matter - the rights of women and girls being centred on the feminist forum.

Thats it.

I don't have a problem with men who are here actively campaigning for the rights of their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers or whoever else they have responsibilities towards. Especially if this relative isn't in a position to advocate for themselves because they are vulnerable in some way (this is particularly important in the case of minors or those in care in some capacity).

Now can we get back to the subject matter or can you explain why it's not ok for a man to advocate for his daughters privacy and dignity? Given we are so used to the bloody oppose being deemed as acceptable despite all reason.

I used to agree with this until I've seen the behaviour of some on here that give a bloody decent answer on SSS and yet act completely inappropriately to women on here especially once told no, to stop speaking over women or not to engage in certain topics where women need to speak solely to eachother. Interesting every post that's bothered by me asking this has framed it as my opinion and ignored the examples of behaviour of men. I never said it's not okay for a man to advocate, in fact my first post even made that very clear. I was asking why a man, who doesn't make it clear he's a man, thinks it's relevant if others are male and was (un)surprised that even a man who does activism still thinks he decides when his sex is relevant to women. It's all very well for men to advocate for women but if they can never be corrected by a woman when they have a blind spot addressed to them, the activism is gonna hit a walk when it comes to benefitting women and girls.

As you're now another additional poster deciding to engage with me I'll remind you detailing is everyone who engages. I responses to SSS post and then to 1984, so perhaps if you're so keen to get back to the subject matter you should wonder why my questions to them riled you so much to engage and "derail" the thread further.

I am awful at misreading names. For ages I thought I was responding to a poster called christ in an apple (like when people take photos of a Christ shaped burn mark in a piece of toast).

Going on about toilets is so exasperating. Maybe I should change my name to Christ on a bike.

I should clarify I see prostitution and surrogacy as exploitation, not liberal feminists. Can't edit it now. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I knew what you meant.

Christonatoilet would be fun! Having said that, I've always appreciated how easy your username is to remember when you need tagging on a thread so please don't change it!

Totally agree, does what it says on the tin, so easy to remember.

I thought that is what his name meant! Christ-in-apple

Though I always read it as Chris Tinapple, like Johnny Appleseed

For you - ChristOnAKhazi 😁

😂

Thanks! 😊 It made sense to me when I was typing it, then didn't when I read it again.

It was a pleasure to read.

There's definitely food for thought in the recent posts. I'll think about adopting a more manly/male-coding username. I appreciate this is a female space and I mean no disrespect.

Wondering if I should use "Mansplaining Aloud", lol.
As a homage to the great Jethro Tull song "Wondering Aloud".