UK radical feminists; what to do?

[RealRoseCritic]

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

I don't think anyone should have told you to leave, it's a forum anyone can partake in. It's odd though they when clearly some have expressed that they didn't feel you should be here you didn't consider using an obvious male name so posters could just choose not to engage with you if they weren't seeking males opinions. A username is much less mansplainy than caveating your posts.

As a man, do you regularly accuse others of being male?

@SingleSexSpacesInSchools the only answer is for you to put he/him after your name

#sarcasm

No one should be expected to know people's histories on a forum where people can NC all the time. He's had it pointed out on more than one thread, especially sometimes due to the theme and content, that it's a discussion where the OP was seeking discussion with women and I do think that partaking with a username that doesn't our you as a man is assuming you'll be ready as female by those who don't keep a track of who every poster is. Particularly when accusing people of being male. Particularly when dominating threads on feminism where women have different opinions but many male posters on here don't all claim to be feminist.

They're certainly not keen to be perceived as male which is obvious from their choice of usernames and insistence not to change it regardless of women's feedback.

I mean there's so many ways DadSupportingSSS MrSinglesexspaces Singlesexspacesdude. There are good men on here who do this without thinking because they know it's a predominantly (or used to be) female forum but now who knows!

I get both points of view.

I genuinely believe it's quite hard for some men, even those who are staunch allies, to take a back seat and amplify the voices of women to the exclusion of their own. (And by some, I mean virtually all, obvs).

When you see it, and I have, it's so unusual, it looks odd. Which is a very sad indictment.

So I get women wanting to make it all crystal clear, at the very least.

On the other hand, SSSIS has definitely helped moved the needle for women in terms of schools. And also is extremely articulate, and has inhuman patience.

The women here have been rebutting arguments like Greta's for over a decade, it does get old sometimes. And therefore the fresh light of rage in the eyes of someone new can feel quite novel.

The other thing is, I can't help feeling that since this does not hit the radar of most men, when it does, it's worth encouraging. Or at the very least, not discouraging.

It does feel weird when you think you're talking to a woman, and they turn out to be a man, though. I was thinking of suggesting that SSSIS does put something in his username, but as a PP pointed out, it would only look like advertising.

Yes I agree, it's the weird feeling when you've been reading someone's posts assuming they're a woman for a while and then you find out. I don't think it's good enough that some posters know who is and isn't male, it should just be obvious. Recently a male on here was trolling women about their sexual traumas after being told he needed to listen to women if he wanted to help the GC course before admitting he had trouble taking "no" from a woman. Because of his male username posters could see how troubling his behaviour was. Nothings stopping him from being under the radar now with a neutral username. It's easier to root out people's intentions when they at least show courtesy of declaring their sex to show they understand why their sex matters and also so women can recognise and educate them when they have a blind spot I.e. calling women silly girls or handmaidens - I'm not going to police what we as women call eachother but when I see a male username do it, it gets rightly called out that they can't do that.

Any good man engaging with the cause shouldn't be discouraged by being asking to respect women's boundaries to know who they're engaging with, who's questioning their lives experience, who's messaging them etc. I get that usernames don't prove sex but I don't think there would be any women on here falsely using a male username, but there seems to be a number of men all coincidentally choosing a neutral one (forgetting that most don't use a sexed username because this was a site originally built for women!)

ETA I don't really get the advertising thing? MN is the one website where you're not going to get any kind of privilege for declaring you're a man. What's wrong with advertising your sex?

Me too.

... you dominate thread where I'd love to hear more from the women on here, not "the dudes"

Go on then @Irkeddancer - nothing stopping you from doing that. Instead of arguing against someone who is clearly 'on our side' and who has more than ably demonstrated their ability to argue against Gretel.

Given SSSIS is going through a legal challenge to protect his daughter and by virtue of that, all young women in schools. I feel he should be welcomed to vent his spleen on our behalf, here.

I would imagine he is under an incredible personal strain, as he has mentioned on here.

Besides which, he has not once (to my knowledge) made a mis step, mansplained or anything like that. And is doing a great job.

Why does it have to be one or the other? I partake on loads of threads, on this occasion after seeing SSS call someone a dude when we all know they're a dude I wanted to ask him, again, why he operates under none sexed username. Why is this seen as arguing or an attack to ask someone to identify their sex?

I said I agree with his work. I don't agree with his repeated claim that his sex doesn't matter when he's engaging on discussions with women. That still doesn't mean I agree with or need a man to vent on my "behalf" as a woman. He should speak for himself and from a man's perspective, not try to speak for women. No one on here needs that.

ETA I don't really get the advertising thing? MN is the one website where you're not going to get any kind of privilege for declaring you're a man. What's wrong with advertising your sex?

I'd like to think a man wouldn't get any kind of privilege, but given the number of women who post here, it wouldn't surprise me if they did.

There's a poster here who has a female name, who turned out to be a man. An excellent poster. But it was, nonetheless, a shock to discover their sex.

So I get it. I'm just not sure there's much of a solution that would satisfy everyone.

Only males insisting they're women.
I'm happy to change my username to indicate my sex, I'm famously all thumbs on stuff like this, but will give it a go.

Well, you're wrong. The movement here has been a grassroots one. I know that because i've been involved since its early days when we had to meet in each other's homes; and had to announce venues at the last minute lest trans activists got wind and turned up to disrupt; and when there was literally 'no debate' or even discussion in parliament; and when no mainstream media were even covering the issue; when female journalists were being ejected from their publications; when women were being excluded from their constituency Labour parties or trade union groups, and being banned from twitter and other social media platforms.

What motivated the early days of the movement was the profound insult involved in telling women that some men were also women, and that we all had to go along with this fantasy. It represented profound disrespect towards the dignity and integrity of the female sex. That is what motivated me. And then i discovered how it has been inserted into our culture and institutions in secret, without discussion and in a top down fashion - and based on academic theories that originated in the U.S; and was funded by major players there also.

What do you mean by that? Either it matters what sex posters are or it doesn't when you say it can't be proven anyway. I'm not insisting you change it, I'm curious of the mindset behind why you and SSS don't think maleness is relevant when it comes to yourselves? And how do you balance.your input and ensure you're amplifying women when you can't assume who is and isn't, do you assume the majority of posters you reply to are women even though you're male, or does the fact you're male and don't make it clear mean you assume others might be male?

I'm a Mrs ho ho as opposed Mr Sho ho . The discussion made me consider how my user name could be read either way. 😬

Maybe I'm naive but I'd like to think otherwise, which is why I'm interested in why men make a conscious decision to not be obviously male when they're usually aware this will bring privilege so a choice not to do it to me means perhaps they assume it will disadvantage them. I don't want males excluded from discussions but I'd place less weight on their opinions because I value women's contributions more.

There's a poster here who has a female name, who turned out to be a man. An excellent poster. But it was, nonetheless, a shock to discover their sex.

I must have missed this! We're they using a female name and declaring their sex in posts or pretending to be female?

So I get it. I'm just not sure there's much of a solution that would satisfy everyone.

Agreed, I just personally think if I were a man the username thing would just be an obvious given for me. Likewise if I was on one of the boards or a forum aimed mostly at men say about men's health or something, I would have a username making it obvious I'm a woman in a mans space as a given, because I'm probably there trying to find help for a loved one and don't have my own loved experience.

You miss my point. You said you wanted to hear more from women on this thread, in rebuttal of the bilge being spouted by Gretel.

Well, go on then.

I'm not sure you can get much more amplifying women than the work SSSiS has been doing.

I find i can mostly, not always, but mostly tell male posters. And those that aren't pretending to be women sometimes have neutral usernames. Those pretending, tend not to. I also find there's no need to call out those not fomenting ructions.

I've always read you as Mrs HoHo so I'm quite pleased with that! It's always made me think of Mrs Clause 🤶🏻

AdamRyan, where is she now? 🤔

I'll make any contribution I wish to, thanks.

Gretel, you made a lot of points. I want to pick up on one of them.

British institutions, businesses, politicians etc were sold the gender ID myth, largely by Stonewall, who helped persuade them that trans rights extended far beyond what was legal in this country.

This happened at the same time that gender studies ideas were informing students, who took these new ideas into the workplace. Meanwhile EDI took off in businesses across country.

This is all Top Down. There is very little demand for it from the population at large. This is partly why there is such push back. People did not ask their politicians and institutions to replace sex with gender ID. There was no debate. No one did any sort of risk analysis. No one was consulted.

It was all imposed from above. Too right we have looked at it and said no.

Me too! Although sometimes i mentally put the gap in other usernames in the wrong place, not necessarily Mr/Mrs ones, which leads me to think what does it mean and why did they choose that....

A bit like coworker, which I always read as cow orker. Just use colleague!

As an aside, I'm sure Gretel is just loving this dissension in the ranks.