Brave reporter undergoes inhumane sex test for sports. Brace yourselves.

[singthing]

Here's a blow-by-blow first-person account of what it is like to have the new sports sex test that is being decried as invasive and dehumanising and (in a rather extravagant bending of the facts) a genital inspection etc.

After such a big build-up, prepare to be.... underwhelmed. But please do stop scrolling now if you don't want to read the distressing details:

"I open my mouth and feel the swab brushing the inside of my cheeks for about 20 seconds. The practitioner carefully places the sample in a small plastic bag and then pops it into a sealed envelope. I sign the back of it."

https://archive.ph/kITV9

In the last Olympics the test used to determine whether someone could box in the women's category was whether it said female in their passport. All a male had to show to compete as female was a passport that said female

If you mean me, I didn’t set out to educate. You’ll see sometimes people have asked me things and I’ve very much responded ‘I dont know!’ (Eg on my feelings re worlds strongest women just don’t feel untangled yet). I think this is still a space where we can disagree and discuss, without just setting out to ‘educate’ each other.

Also new to mumsnet doesn’t mean new to the debate - some of us are out there competing in women’s sports and we do discuss it, even if not on a mumsnet thread!!

Don’t worry, it’s very clear you don’t know.

ok.

The testosterone suppression option is a legacy option for exisiting competitors.

The new SRY test will make it much fairer for men like CS in future. Their DSD will be picked up and treated, if necessary, and they will be in possession of the full facts about their condition. All the athletes who want to take part in female competition will be aware in advance that there is a slim chance of a DSD being discovered and so will make an informed choce.

Exactly. That’s all that “legally female” means in many places. It’s likely Khelif has the same male DSD as Semenya.

I recommend that you sort through any emotionally manipulative opinions that convinced you.

And read the evidence that is not shaped by philosophical belief that either male people can be female people ( including those with DSDs that produce and / or process testosterone) or that female people should have to accept unfair competitions because one group of people have used emotionally manipulative campaigns to demand that sporting organisations prioritise a group of male people over female people. In fact, the OIC actually admitted that in a press release if I remember correctly. That they prioritised a group of male people's human rights over female people's human rights. Why? Under the name of 'inclusion'.

I would think about how fucking inclusive it is that female athletes in any country are denied representing their country and the opportunities that brings because some male people with male physical advantage have been prioritised as being more important to protect than they are?

"some of us are out there competing in women’s sports and we do discuss it, even if not on a mumsnet thread!!'

Perhaps you are discussing it in a bubble with people who have not challenged you in the past.

The infuriating thing is the posts about how ridiculous it is that 200,000 girls have to undergo this cruel and unnecessary tests when there's only 200 transgirls in schools in (insert state name).

Yeah and if they hadn't spent 2 decades pretending that it's perfectly ok for those 200 trans-identified males to "run stealth" and tell no-one that they are actually male, then none of this would be necessary because it would already be normalised that schools know exactly who the trans-identifying pupils are, no documentation would have been reissued with false information on it, and the issue of working out how to ensure that trans-identifying pupils have good opportunities for sports and fitness that doesn't disrupt the rights and safety of girls would have had 2 decades worth of time and investment by now.

The expense of these tests is the expense of clearing up the mess that Stonewall Law liars have made, it is not our mess.

If you are swayed by emotion @Deadlifter then picture me, and loads of other women like me, with tears streaming down our faces watching a male boxer punch a female boxer at the last Olympics.

I know that JB is a transwoman and CS is a male with a male DSD. My point was that both JB and CS knew they should not be competing in female competitions and yet did/continued to attempt to.

I dont think so. As I said upthread when someone asked my thoughts on worlds strongest women, my experience was that the strength sports community was fairly split on it. There was quite a bit of falling out and upset and people on both sides of the debate feeling hurt / shocked their coach or athlete felt differently etc. I think some of my insistence on recognising complexity comes from closeness rather than distance if that makes sense.

Sweet baby Jesus and the wee donkey, surely there's a NSFW warning and some blurry filter you can apply to that quotation?

Surely CS takes their own advice in this scenario. There are two categories - male and female. CS doesn't qualify for the female category. To qualify for the male category, maybe CS has to train harder/better

Ah ok, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page! I do think JB and CS are fairly different cases. And as I say, I do think JB competing in an untested competition where other competitors are taking testosterone and other performance enhancing drugs add some complexity to fairness debates.

I feel differently about CS, but yes I think it was ultimately probably the right decision to disqualify JB and as I say, I think Andrea deserved her 1st place moment on the platform!

I've seen your efforts here and concluded no melting is required.

My existence as an intersex female tends to upset a lot of people who claim that males are (or could secretly be) female. Because my body is a reminder that female and intersex does indeed exist, and they aren't it.

anyone who believes sex is not completely straightforward
Straw man argument. Sex is, in rare cases, more difficult to discern. But that doesn't mean there is not a discrete, observable answer.

It's difficult in real life to be torn between two very polarised sides.

On the bright side it's a wonderful bellweather for those who do and do not have that elusive combination of critical thinking and integrity.

Results can be surprising and depressing but are extremely informative.

The truth does not always fall halfway between whatever two opposing possibilities are presented at any given time. Behaving as though it does is generally because it's easier to try to keep the peace and paint yourself as the reasonable middle ground at the expense of fairness, logic and reason than to do the proper thinking work and then stand firmly behind what's right.

Humans as pack animals are very susceptible to that easy path.

When you have a female race at an international competition and positions 1,2 and 3 go to genetic males, you can't say that it doesn't affecting a great deal of competitors, it literally affected every female in that race!

And the three women who each lost their chance to compete and represent their country, with all the possible opportunities that would bring.

It's back to that old question - how many women need to be affected for it to matter, and the answer is always x + 1.

Some boxers are heavier than others, why should they have weight divisions? I just want to see the best people compete.

All sports have age categories, but I just want to see the best people compete.

I think human brains really like certainty, actually! Staying open to being wrong and holding complexity can often be harder.

There are plenty of times I am sure whats right and i’m happy to stand up strongly for what I believe in those times!

I don’t think I’m trying to take the easy middle ground here - i’m just being honest that I don’t know the best way to make sport fair for everyone.

I have said very clearly that I think the people calling Castor Semenya a man for no reason than the fun of it are cruel - I haven’t wavered on that.

this was a response to a question asking if I was in a bubble or if I’ve been challenged before and the answer is YES - of course I’ve been challenged before. And gently, mumsnet is quite famously a bubble on gender issues! Like, you must all know that… it’s an INFAMOUS bubble!

I compete in a weight category sport. But weight is EXTREMELY easy to measure compared to sex!

It's not a cruel test. The original article explained it. If you've ever done a Covid test, you've done worse than one of these sex tests.

All athletes have to do drugs tests because of cheats.

And yet, we constantly have people challenging us and providing other information … I would think that is the opposite to a bubble.

And I would also think that you have just shown you have a prejudiced view of this board.

Sex is very easy to measure .

Usually a cheek swab once is all it needs… rarely it requires further testing.

the correct term is probably sex screening