Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brave reporter undergoes inhumane sex test for sports. Brace yourselves.

468 replies

singthing · 28/07/2026 11:08

Here's a blow-by-blow first-person account of what it is like to have the new sports sex test that is being decried as invasive and dehumanising and (in a rather extravagant bending of the facts) a genital inspection etc.

After such a big build-up, prepare to be.... underwhelmed. But please do stop scrolling now if you don't want to read the distressing details:

"I open my mouth and feel the swab brushing the inside of my cheeks for about 20 seconds. The practitioner carefully places the sample in a small plastic bag and then pops it into a sealed envelope. I sign the back of it."

https://archive.ph/kITV9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:13

We can talk about it in general.

What does it change?

Male people who are able to produce and/or process male levels of testosterone should not be competing in female sports. The advantages male people experience over female people have been noted from the age of 6 years old.

What does talking about any other athlete change about the reality of the situation?

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

spannasaurus · 28/07/2026 18:19

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:10

Why DO you all want to talk exclusively about Semenya? If you really think either people with DSD or trans people are a significant threat to fairness in women’s sport, you must have LOADS of other people you want to talk about.

We could talk about the men listed below rather than Semanya if you wish

Imane khelif
Francine Niyonsaba
Margaret Wambui
Barbra Banda

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:20

NecessaryScene · 28/07/2026 18:17

And despite the huge nebulous multidimensional mass that 'intersex' cases are supposed to be, the vast majority in sports have been exactly the same condition as Semenya: 5-ARD (eg Khelif recently). It's common enough to actively scout for, if sex testing is absent. Easier than scouting for talented girls.

Yep. Ekkart Arbeit is the sports coach who was coaching the East German women, then came to Athletics Australia in the late 90s ( 1997?) in lead up to Sydney 2000 Olympics to coach the women but they rescinded his contract in 1998. Arbeit eventually ended up as the coach for South Africa in the mid 2000s.

As an expert on the effects of testosterone, he knew what he was doing all along.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/further-checks-on-coach-ordered-1.114105

Olympic champion hires former East German drug guru: report

Olympic heptathlon champion Denise Lewis's new coach Frank Dick has recruited the man credited with masterminding the biggest state-sponsored doping program in history to get his athlete into contention for this year's world championships.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-22/olympic-champion-hires-former-east-german-drug/1841668

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2026 18:08

Not really, no. It points to identity politics.

Yeah, it points to the rise of transphobia tbh!

spannasaurus · 28/07/2026 18:21

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

Some woman may have higher testosterone levels than other woman but they won't have testosterone in the male range unless they're doping

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:22

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

So now you are bringing in what is called the Phelps gambit. it is a fallacy.

Because Phelps and others have allowable physical variations under the competition rules. I will post expert's advice on this.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:23

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE / PHELPS GAMBIT / PHELPS ARGUMENT

Here is a good explanation. It has links to relevant information embedded so it is best to see it on twitter.

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186

But here is some of it:

Phelps' wingspan:height ratio is 1.04. It's straightforward to find other males with the same ratio who are slower than Phelps in some strokes, but who are faster in others. e.g. Matt Grevers. Ratio 1.04, slower freestyle than Phelps, faster backstroker than Phelps. Interestingly, despite the same wingspan:height ratio, he's, in absolute numbers, generally bigger than Phelps.

What you never find is a female with the same wingspan:height ratio who is there or thereabouts compared with Phelps. Missy Franklin has a ratio of 1.03, yet is over 10% slower than Phelps.

It's almost like wingspan:height ratio isn't discriminatory in the pool. Even absolute wingspan or absolute height isn't discriminatory.

And there's a very simple reason. When you select, on national or international levels, for athletes that are good in a particular discipline, you will tend to pull through an entire group who all share the general advantage (in this case, swimmers are tall with long arms). Phelps, with height (not the tallest) and wingspan (not the widest, nor the biggest ratio) is, for sure, built to be a better swimmer than almost every other person in the world. But his body shape is not particularly extraordinary within that group of competitive swimmers.

To argue that his advantage is extraordinary within the entire male population, sure. Well, I wouldn't go with unfair, but's a real advantage. But he doesn't race against the male population. He races against other males who are likely to share the same advantage.

This is why The Phelps Gambit (trademark pending) is nonsense, and immediately flags that the person asserting it has read numerous MSM stories about the glorious physique of Phelps (and he was glorious, absolutely), without applying any deeper analysis.

Men can have long arms. Women can have long arms. Men with long arms are better swimmers than women with long arms.

Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) on X

The Phelps Gambit - life’s unfair. The Phelps Gambit runs like this: Michael Phelps had ‘unfair’ advantages in swimming, but nobody prevented him from competing, so why should we prevent others with ‘unfair’ advantages (males) competing against any...

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:24

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

Here is another explanation of why the Phelps Gambit is weak.

https://x.com/Scienceofsport/status/1820462042765001041
Ross Tucker
5 August 2024

Yeah, poor old Phelps became the poster child for this illogical argument that his advantages are the same as those of males. I'll try to explain why this is such poor thinking. First, Phelps' advantages are not category-crossing. That is, there is no category for short arms, and there is no category for small feet, or high lactate producers etc. So we have decided, for better or worse, not to create a category for people without Attribute X. And thus, when a person has X, they shouldn't be excluded, so there's no basis to disqualify Phelps.

Now, one could have a debate over whether we SHOULD think about creating a category for small feet or short arms. If we did this, then Phelps' supposed advantages would become 'outside of category', and we'd say that he's not allowed to swim in the protected category, right?

But we don't need to do this, because the advantages that he has are tiny compared to what male advantage does to performance. Phelps wins by 0.5%. Males win by 12% (compared to females). By scale, then, these advantages are orders of magnitude different.

It's also a massive oversimplification to say that Phelps won because his arms are long or that he produces less lactate. They're daft, incorrect attributions anyway. And finally, females also have some of these advantages - there are women who produce less lactate, or have long arms.

They don't make up for the absence of male advantage. So they're totally different situations. Fundamentally, what sport is trying to reward are those exceptional individuals within categories. We actually celebrate these advantages, they make sport what it is, no?

But we need to rule out some other advantages - size/mass in boxing, age in all sport - because otherwise the things that do NOT matter overwhelm the things that do. Phelps physiology matters - it's why he wins gold medals. Katie Ledecky, though, also has physiology that deserves gold.
It's just she doesn't have male advantage as well. And that's the point - "as well". They are equally great swimmers, but within their categories. The only way around this is to say that we should create a category because Advantage X is so large it also overwhelms the result.

But it doesn't - as mentioned, by scale, what Phelps has over males is tiny compared to what males have over females. Put another way - the fastest swimmer with small feet or shorter arms (whatever that means) is not beaten by thousands of longer armed, bigger footed swimmers!

So I hope I've not laboured that or explained it clumsily. To sum up, Phelps is a bad counter point. So is height in basketball (there's no "short people NBA, only 180cm or under" category).

Rather think age, weight and disability class, and ask if the attribute, X, devalues the things we actually want to reward, or whether it's part of it. Phelps' advantages are part of the excellence. Male advantage is not - being male is NOT a talent, and as such, shouldn't be part of the mix. What Phelps has, those are different.

Ross Tucker (@Scienceofsport) on X

@saurabh_42 Yeah, poor old Phelps became the poster child for this illogical argument that his advantages are the same as those of males. I'll try to explain why this is such poor thinking. First, Phelps' advantages are not category-crossing. That is,...

https://x.com/Scienceofsport/status/1820462042765001041

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:24

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:19

I just don’t think there actually are that many examples. A handful, sure - I can think of four or five people that others might bring up - but I don’t think it’s actually affecting a great deal of competitors in reality.

I know you’ll all say this argument is tired, but elite athletes DO have physical advantages over other people - that’s why they’re elite. Some of them have incredibly long arms or are good at basketball because they’re seven foot tall… some women might have more testosterone than others (even within the ‘normal’ range. I just want to see the best people compete.

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE - A REALLY QUICK ONE FROM DR HILTON

"Having male biology is not simply another type of advantage athletes have, it’s an advantage we have created categories around. We all seem to agree that having a woman’s category is desirable and necessary, we all know it’s because men are, as a group, bigger and stronger etc, and that without protection from male advantage, women wouldn’t win in athletics sports. So it’s perfectly coherent to argue that anyone with this type of advantage - male advantage - is ineligible for the category designed to exclude it."

11th August 2024
https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1822649897918861380

Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) on X

@patrickamon @RufusHound @born_crying @lemon_charlotte @AndrewGold_ok Having male biology is not simply another type of advantage athletes have, it’s an advantage we have created categories around. We all seem to agree that having a woman’s category...

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1822649897918861380

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:25

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:22

So now you are bringing in what is called the Phelps gambit. it is a fallacy.

Because Phelps and others have allowable physical variations under the competition rules. I will post expert's advice on this.

Id be interested in reading the advice! As all along, I am INTERESTED in complexity! I’m genuinely happy to hear other points of view.

one thing from your post - ‘within the competition rules’. Competition rules aren’t god-given - humans make them up - so what’s allowable within the rules isn’t necessarily going to be right or fair every single time.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:26

Oh.. and here is the 'not many'

13 MALE PEOPLE WITH DSDs JUST IN ATHLETICS IN 2023.

^https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900^

"Coe said this will impact 13 DSD athletes, seven (55%) of whom compete in running events above a mile, with six (45%) in sprinting events below 400m."

Imagine... 13 just in athletics..... in one olympics.... but don't worry, it is not many.

Generic shot of runners

World Athletics bans transgender women from competing in female world ranking events

World Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category at international events.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

StylesSluttyShorts · 28/07/2026 18:27

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 17:32

You could believe that it’s the right decision for her not to compete, but still refer to her using she / her pronouns if you genuinely wanted to be compassionate to a person who was told they were a girl from birth, has female genitalia etc. OR you could just cruelly keep typing HES A MAN for no reason. __You’re not showing compassion at all.

I don't believe for a second he uses she/her pronouns away from the cameras.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:27

RE: COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE OF 5ARD FROM THE CAS FINDING IN SEMENYA'S CASE

This is an interesting quote Ross Tucker has clipped from the CAS finding.

The text lifted from the photo says:
Because they are "biologically indistinguishable.. in all relevant respects". athletes with 5-ARD experience the same ergogenic effect from these physiological changes as males without DSD experience. The only material physical difference between 5-ARD athletes and male athletes without DSD is "the size and shape of their external genitals", which has no impact on athletic performance.

While no 5-ARD athlete has yet won a women's event by a margin of 10-12%, this fact has nothing to do with their condition. Rather, it reflects the fact that, "the particular [5-ARD] athletes we have seen thus far are not as good as the best males. Like many other (non-elite) males, they still beat the very best biological females, just by a smaller margin."

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1722006033491513584?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

His tweet says:

“It's interesting that this came up in the CAS hearing, too. World Athletics had kind of tap danced and skirted around it in the Chand case, but when Semenya played this card at CAS, World Athletics responded, and point 289 of the CAS decision captures the conclusion:”

Ross Tucker (@Scienceofsport) on X

It's interesting that this came up in the CAS hearing, too. World Athletics had kind of tap danced and skirted around it in the Chand case, but when Semenya played this card at CAS, World Athletics responded, and point 289 of the CAS decision captures...

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/1722006033491513584?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:27

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:24

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE - A REALLY QUICK ONE FROM DR HILTON

"Having male biology is not simply another type of advantage athletes have, it’s an advantage we have created categories around. We all seem to agree that having a woman’s category is desirable and necessary, we all know it’s because men are, as a group, bigger and stronger etc, and that without protection from male advantage, women wouldn’t win in athletics sports. So it’s perfectly coherent to argue that anyone with this type of advantage - male advantage - is ineligible for the category designed to exclude it."

11th August 2024
https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1822649897918861380

I get this, but it doesn’t really provide an answer to what we we do with people who have some kind of DSD / variance. Emma Hilton acknowledges here we’ve CREATED the categories, so I think it’s our problem to solve when people don’t fit neatly into them, rather than just excluding them from sports OR insisting on medical intervention until they meet the category rules.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2026 18:28

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:20

Yeah, it points to the rise of transphobia tbh!

No, it points to the rise of letting men appropriate women’s stuff.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:28

PAPER ON MEANINGFUL COMPETITION BY JON PIKE

This paper goes through what competitive advantage means. Jon Pike is a Philosophy lecturer for the Open University and so this is a counter to the philosophical discussion around 'inclusion'. An argument successfully used by Harper (2015?) and McKinnon (2019) in discussions with the IOC, or so I believe.

The PHELPS argument for competitive advantage is referred to in this tweet which refers to the page numbers in the paper:

”The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false.”
I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong’.
”Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15:”

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition
6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair.

I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document.

To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

(note: my paragraph breaks to make it easier to read quickly, sorry Jon)

Jon Pike (@runthinkwrite) on X

The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false. I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong'. Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15: https://t.co/UZCwhWZCs...

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

AimsAndObjectives · 28/07/2026 18:29

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:27

I get this, but it doesn’t really provide an answer to what we we do with people who have some kind of DSD / variance. Emma Hilton acknowledges here we’ve CREATED the categories, so I think it’s our problem to solve when people don’t fit neatly into them, rather than just excluding them from sports OR insisting on medical intervention until they meet the category rules.

They are not excluded from sports. They simply have to play in the correct category for their sex or an open category.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 28/07/2026 18:31

NecessaryScene · 28/07/2026 17:53

Note how explicit the anti-female argument is here - proponents aren't always this explicit.

Athletes like Semenya 'don't fit in male or female boxes' yet they must be placed in the female category despite not fitting.

I blame the Ancient Greeks, as far as I can tell any male who didn't fit their idea of how a man should be would get assigned into the female bucket, I think this has been deeply ingrained in ideas of male and female for a very long time.
Women are just defined by being not male and expected to absorb into our sex class any male who just isn't being a proper bloke.

Anyone trying to argue about intersex (really? not a helpful term as far as I know, nobody is inbetween sexes) here is going to be outclassed, I've read plenty of threads where women who know a great deal about it have taken it to bits, shaken it out and debunked it. The sad thing is they will have little idea of how outclassed they are, but that seems to be a feature not a bug.

Citations for the scientists mentioned would be a good idea, unevidenced claims less so.

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:33

AimsAndObjectives · 28/07/2026 18:29

They are not excluded from sports. They simply have to play in the correct category for their sex or an open category.

But in the case of CS (sorry, I accept I’m bringing her up again here!!) - she IS legally recognised by the IAAF as female, but isn’t allowed to compete without taking testosterone suppressing drugs (and in my experience, the people call her her a man are usually against people taking hormone blockers / medically transitioning etc)

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:33

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:27

I get this, but it doesn’t really provide an answer to what we we do with people who have some kind of DSD / variance. Emma Hilton acknowledges here we’ve CREATED the categories, so I think it’s our problem to solve when people don’t fit neatly into them, rather than just excluding them from sports OR insisting on medical intervention until they meet the category rules.

It has been said by Dr Ross Tucker who reviewed the Semenya case and gave evidence in court (I believe), there is nothing that would have prevented Semenya, if I remember correctly, from training as a male athlete and competing in a male competition.

In the case of 5ARD and some other DSDs, they can compete in male events. If they wish to create a competition that is just for them, they should campaign for an exclusive event if they feel they cannot compete as male athletes.

As I said before, many people find out to their detriment that they are not able to compete in the sport that they want to at an elite level.

Again, why should this group of male athletes who have had the advantage of producing and processing testosterone at male levels be treated differently to any other athlete who finds out that they can not compete at elite level like they want to because their personal situation means they are excluded?

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:35

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:33

It has been said by Dr Ross Tucker who reviewed the Semenya case and gave evidence in court (I believe), there is nothing that would have prevented Semenya, if I remember correctly, from training as a male athlete and competing in a male competition.

In the case of 5ARD and some other DSDs, they can compete in male events. If they wish to create a competition that is just for them, they should campaign for an exclusive event if they feel they cannot compete as male athletes.

As I said before, many people find out to their detriment that they are not able to compete in the sport that they want to at an elite level.

Again, why should this group of male athletes who have had the advantage of producing and processing testosterone at male levels be treated differently to any other athlete who finds out that they can not compete at elite level like they want to because their personal situation means they are excluded?

Interesting - as above, I know the IAAF have said she’s legally female. I don’t know if they’d have allowed her to compete in the male category or not!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/07/2026 18:36

Always informative to see the same old tropes being aired in a failed attempt to wedge men into women's sport and the same informed evidence being patiently produced by women that's been shared on here for so many years.

Tedious but necessary. Especially when another new poster decides to try to "educate" us out of our knowledge that there's no place for men in women's sport.

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:37

I have to go now, but just wanted to say thanks to the people who have taken the time to engage with me in good faith! Even when I’ve disagreed, I’ve appreciated people sharing their knowledge and opinions and linking me to articles to read further etc.

Helleofabore · 28/07/2026 18:38

Deadlifter · 28/07/2026 18:33

But in the case of CS (sorry, I accept I’m bringing her up again here!!) - she IS legally recognised by the IAAF as female, but isn’t allowed to compete without taking testosterone suppressing drugs (and in my experience, the people call her her a man are usually against people taking hormone blockers / medically transitioning etc)

Semenya is male.

Supressing testosterone does not make a male person 'female'. That is actually fucking offensive to female people. There are also papers recognising that reducing testosterone does not change the competitive advantages that male people have developed. Such as : skeletal proportions, grip strength, fast twitch muscles, Q angles. The list is very long.

I recommend that you read this linked thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

But I also ask you to respect that fact that is it is an archive thread and not a discussion thread and to not post commentary on it.

Save female sports evidence thread | Mumsnet

I am conscious that the Break it Down for me thread is nearly full. I am therefore hoping that this thread can be an archive thread just for the sport...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/07/2026 18:38

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/07/2026 18:36

Always informative to see the same old tropes being aired in a failed attempt to wedge men into women's sport and the same informed evidence being patiently produced by women that's been shared on here for so many years.

Tedious but necessary. Especially when another new poster decides to try to "educate" us out of our knowledge that there's no place for men in women's sport.

Indeed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread