Work Women's Network still open to everyone who identifies as a woman

[Polynerd]

I work for a large organisation that has various 'diversity groups' including lgbtq+, disability, ethnicity etc. One is the Women's Network, but when I click through to the group's page it says it is for anyone who identifies as a woman. Are they actually allowed to do this, given recent rulings/guidance? Should I flag to my employer? I'm pretty nervous to do so, sadly.

We have men in our menopause support group. They need to be informed and hear lived experience to hopefully be more understanding

Maybe but that would be when I'm 45+. Am I not allowed to join a women's network before then?

What is the purpose of a women’s network in a workplace setting if it is not representing wonen’s issues?

Of course it can, and should, represent women's issues. But I disagree with saying a woman has to have to experienced women's issues or be subject to sex based discrimination in order to join. I think just have XX should be enough.

It's great you haven't experienced (or possibly just haven't recognised) the sexism that still exists in the workplace.

I'm interested though. If you don't think you face any challenges or have common interests with other with women especially any more than you do with men, why would you want to join a woman's network? What need/purpose would it solve for you?

I suppose I don't see the point of a network of any sort unless there's a common need.

Not having personally experienced the challenges many women do shouldn't bar a woman from joining, no. But not having the possibility a person ever could have because that person is a man (even if he considers himself a woman) should.

But then again, I think the social context in which we live impacts all women (in the original female sense) differently to men of any gender identity. I think we do all have that in common.

If you are female you can join a woman’s group. Not every woman has children or experiences extreme period related symptoms but the purpose of the group is to represent issues related to being female in the workplace otherwise it might as well just be the People’s Network.

In law, as long as they're not professing to offer a single sex space, they can call their network what they like and admit who they like.

I do not believe that is correct.

To exclude men who don't identify as trans and admit men who do is unlawful discrimination.

A network can only admit "who they like" in a way that complies with the EA2010. "We only like white people" is of course just one example of a way that doesn't comply with the Act. There are many others.

I also disagree with the idea that what the group is called makes any difference whatsoever. You cannot cure unlawful discrimination by changing what you call it; and if a group is legal, it doesn't become unlawful because it has a specific name, accurate or otherwise. Some people might be thinking of trade description legislation: that you have to describe goods for sale accurately. A network isn't a good for sale, and as far as I know there's no rule about what you call your group - accurate, or otherwise.

I haven't experienced sexism but I would still like to join a women's group to be social with other women. For me, its just an opportunity to hang out with others.

There's an argument for having a space where people who are not in a particular category can learn about what it is like to belong to that category. Why not? Excellent idea.

But people in that category might also like a space to discuss things without a bunch of outsiders earwigging and perhaps trying to influence what is discussed and how. ( Or having that effect without intending to, just by being there.)

Both the above are valid sorts of groups. But a group that excludes all outsiders except for a select few who have decided they are somehow insiders doesn't fit either of those models or fulfil either of those functions.

Someone in my workplace menopause group suggested we should let men join for this reason. A large number of the rest of us said hell no and suggested that maybe, if men wanted it, there could be occasional sessions they could join, or some sort of additional chat they could join, but we absolutely did not want men in the main group where we are sometimes being quite vulnerable - the purpose of the group is peer support, and men are not our peers in this situation.
I've not heard anything more about it, thankfully.

I would suggest just sending your query to HR in the form of ‘just wanted to clarify the exact purpose of the women’s network please? Is this supposed to be a safe space for women to discuss issues?’

I suspect this sort of network is too loose to qualify as an association under the Equality Act, and it's not really a single sex service either. And of course it doesn't involve toilets, changing rooms etc.

So legally I think they may be able to do this, but of course you can still object on the basis of the various reasons laid out in this thread why it's important to have a properly woman-only network.

Our women’s network campaigns for women and the issues affecting them in the workplace, but it’s open for anyone to join. Same with all our other networks. We have had lots of attendees (both men and women) for our latest discussion on the gender pay gap. Having male allies has been positive for our network.

Does it matter? Of course it does. If women want a network, or a space or hotel that is women only then they deserve to have that.

It's not about excluding trans 'women' it's about women being able to have a single sex space.

I wonder how many women can't access that support group because they don't want to be talking about period flooding in front of men?

If men need to be educated then they need separate education sessions, not a general invitation to a women's group.

No it's not about "revelling in exclusion". For women who don't want to be defined by gender stereotypes it's about recognising that you cannot define our sex by a feeling of being female.

Are you suggesting a Woman's Network at work should exist even if no women anywhere have any sex-specific professional challenges simply to be a purely social network (not a world I believe currently exists, but for the sake of argument let'ssay it does), or are you saying fair enough, the Woman's Network existing in the first place is due to sex-specific professional challenges of women, but given that one exists, although you don't feel you need that support yourself you would like to be part of it for social reasons?

That's not a trick question or a gotcha, I do have thoughts on both scenarios. I just don't want to dive in on scenario A when you were thinking Scenario B, or vice versa.

You’re very lucky to have made it to adulthood without having experienced any form of sexism or sexual harassment, to not have been underpaid compared to male equivalents or passed over for promotion or development opportunities, to have never had to take time off for period pain/issues, smear tests…..

Menopause issues don’t only affect women over 45. Some women go through early menopause naturally or surgical menopause after cancer etc. My sister had to have a hysterectomy during childbirth and went through it at 32.

Or even just been held to different standards when it comes to what is held to demonstrate ambition, leadership and vision.

Or had your application for a job or a promotion looked on unfavourably because you are of child-bearing age, even if you don't have or want children.

He's assertive, she's aggressive.

Same behaviour.

Been there got the t shirt on that one.

He needs a new challenge.

She's a safe pair of hands.

Very insidious that one.

Same with ours, and in the last big corporate I worked in.

Current job has (or had, I haven't had mails about it recently,) a menopause sub group. It was women-only in practice, certainly, but I don't know if it was open to men as well.

I think it can depend on the stated aims of the group- discussions and events have generally been about careers and specific challenges faced by women, and I can't see a problem with men hearing about that. Most of them don't speak unless directly asked a question IME.

He's commanding
She's bossy

He takes an interest
She's gossips

I was a single woman in the workplace for many years before marrying, and I have no children. I have certainly experienced sex-based discrimination more than once.

But that’s not the criterion for joining a women’s group. Being female is the only criterion. You are as eligible as I am. No man is eligible, whether or not he says he’s a woman.

Stand by for the women's network to be rebranded 'The Gender Network' if/when you raise this.

Looking at you civil service.