Vulva Only Spaces

[Lurkingandlearning]

Is this what we need to be asking for now?

That wouldn't exclude people who had transitioned. But it would exclude people who have a penis. Surely when people had transitioned and have a vulva instead of a penis they would feel exactly the same way, as women.

removing a penis does not create a vulva

I'm sorry. I thought part of the surgery to change the genitalia removed the penis and created something at least resembling a vulva. Am I wrong?

How would they feel the same as women given they are men? And what does feel the same as women mean anyway?

1/10

Eh?

There is so much wrong with this post that I, quite frankly, can't be arsed.

I suggest starting with looking up the definitions of words and working forward towards reality from there.

Good luck!

Isn't the whole point of transitioning that those people feel they are a woman in a man's body?

I didn't phrase that clearly. Women, not all women, but many women feel differently about being confronted by an unexpected and unwelcome penis than men do. That is how flashers get their kicks - from the shock and fear expressed by the woman they have shown their cock to. Similarly, the way a lot of women are repulsed by unsolicited dick picks.

I'm surprised you are unaware of this. I'm equally surprised that you grade posts. Does it make you feel good?

So back to ye olde patriarchal view of women: men without a penis, rather than a group of their own? Plus ça change..

Not to mention any such requirement goes against every human rights convention in existence and would be shut down in court (already happened in Germany a decade or so ago, all the way up to the constitutional court).

And...your mask has already slipped. That was quick.

Not having a penis doesn't make them women though, does it.

And yet you were arsed. Just to criticise though, not to inform. If it is important enough to you to post, why not explain why I must not express myself in my own words. Perhaps give a list of things that you personally believe other people cannot think or say. Do you feel the same about every opinion anyone has that is different to yours on any subject?

Yes you are wrong. I believe scrotal tissue is used to imitate the labia. The penis is sliced open and inverted to form a skin pocket - the so called "neovagina" except of course it's a blind pouch.

Even post surgery, a trans woman is still 100% male, @Lurkingandlearning. And women and girls deserve spaces that are 100% female. Decent men won’t force themselves into our spaces.

A remodelled penis is still a penis. A man is still a man no matter what label he wants to give himself and has no business being in female only spaces.

Mask? I don't think I have said anything that wasn't expected from the title of the thread.

Women are not men without a penis.

Removing the penis doesn't stop men (as a class) being bigger and stronger than women (as a class).

Removing the penis doesn't mean a man magically becomes a woman. I don't want to change at the gym/ pool in front of someone male regardless of which surgery they have had. They can aquire a body that has been superficially altered to look female but it's not a female body. It doesn't have periods, it can't carry a baby, it doesn't experience menopause. These things are exclusively female (yes I know not all females have had babies or gone through the menopause, but unlike men they have the type of body that could).

Single sex spaces should be just that and sex in humans is immutable.

Yes you are wrong, the result of the surgery does not resemble a vulva, in any meaningful way.

Besides, the person remains male, regardless of any surgery, so it's irrelevant in the context of single-sex spaces.

Sure you have. You began by not understanding that whatever surgery a male may have, or how he feels, he’ll never have a vulva. Because it’s a specifically female part of anatomy.

And then the argument which follows from this misunderstanding is also flawed. Even if a male had a visually perfect simulacrum of a vulva, no, many women still wouldn’t want him in their few specifically female spaces.

Very true actually.

I did expect it from the thread title. I gave it the tiniest benefit of the doubt (I'm nice like that), but you proved me right straight out the bat! So thank you for that. 👍

.

I was expecting some people to disagree but how is you saying scrotal tissue is used to imitate the labia different to me say "something resembling a vulva"? You seem to be kind of having an argument and agreeing with me at the same time. Perhaps you're hot and tired.

'Perhaps you're hot and tired.'
🤣🤣🤣🤣

Is this what we need to be asking for now?

No. "Female spaces" is fine.

That wouldn't exclude people who had transitioned.

Men who have transitioned don't have a vulva. They have something that may be called a "neo-vulva" or whatever, but by definition, it's still a part of a male anatomy, since it is attached to a male body and is made of male cells.

But it would exclude people who have a penis. Surely when people had transitioned and have a vulva instead of a penis they would feel exactly the same way, as women.

How could they? They've never had a female anatomy, only a modified male anatomy. Nor have they had female socialisation. In short: they've never been women, because they are and will always be men.

Yes. You are wrong. The idea that an artificial fistula that needs to be constantly maintained to prevent it from healing is in any way similar or equivalent to a vulva is incredibly misogynistic. It comes from the same patriarchal headspace as "any hole's a goal" - ie that the primary function is to be a wanksock for a man's penis. That is not what a vulva is.

Going to extraordinary bodymodification lengths does not buy a man a ticket into female-only spaces.

I wish Mumsnet would let us post photos of these surgeries. Alas they won't, which is probably for the best, thinking about it I have enough crap on my devices as it is.

A high percentage of the surgeries do not look anything like the curated images used on the surgery websites. Maybe the OP should do a bit of internet sleuthing into 'gender affirming surgery' and it's many pitfalls.

As an aside a man remains a man, no matter how good a job of making his cock and balls look like something else a surgeon with a scalpel can do.

@Lurkingandlearning

Oh and how the hell are we supposed to know if the transwoman walking into the ladies is post-op or not? A certificate? A badge? Ask them to show us? Or are we asking them nicely to only use women's spaces if they had the surgery and trusting that they would never ever fib?