Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

@backformoreofthesame
Ah so you follow my 'don't be dick' philosophy of life!

Why do you think she posted in FWR? 😂

There is a pleasant discussion and information gathering then there is full-on war and personal abuse. Which is what generally happens on MN in the sex and gender discussions to anyone that doesn't share the extreme viewpoint.

Full on war? Crikey.

Yes, this.

In my hobby, I care a whole lot about things that literally don't matter. So when other people care about things that do matter, such as social or political issues, even if I don't personally care much about them, I'm certainly not going to tell them they shouldn't care.

Oh I see the Hyperbole High Horse has ridden into town.

For me, it comes down to the fact that mammals cannot change sex and that human beings are mammals.

My brain is wired to find lying extremely difficult, and I just cannot do the mental gymnastics required to overcome this. The ketman, if you will, is too much for me.

Is it me or does it seem as though the OP is being discouraged from engaging politely ?

“oh dont listen to them they’d be nasty to you”

I'd regard myself as in the middle.

Transwomen are obviously not women, just as transmen are not men, but no-one is in denial or trying to erase them or anyone else.

Trans is trans, just as straight is straight and gay is gay. There is room for all of us without trespassing on each others' lives.

What do you say that extreme viewpoint is?

Men calling themselves 'trans women' can and do assault women. They retain male pattern offending, and males commit 80% of violent crime and 99% of sex crimes.

I was very much of the 'lets be inclusive' mind - meaning that - of course, those transitioning needed to use the facilities for their desired gender, etc, but drew the line at allowing trans identified men into the women's prison estate for reasons of safety, men generally being much stronger than women.

The Katie Dolatowski case made me change my mind completely over allowing trans identified men into women's facilities. It happened in the next town, only about 10 miles away.

When a Scottish newspaper has to be careful about 'misgendering' a 6ft 4 bloke who has tried to rape a wee girl, then there's something very wrong with the world. The girl managed to fight him off, so Lennon/Katie was only charged with sexual assault and got a light penalty in spite of also having committed voyeurism against a 12 yr old.

Lennon/Katie has had the authorities bending over backwards for him to an extent which is ridiculous.

Tiffany Scott, also mentioned in this article, was an extremely violent criminal from the a village in between my town and and Dolatowski's town. Formerly Andrew Burns/Mr Mighty Almighty/ Obi Wan Kenobi/Mitzababy, 'Tiffany' claimed to have transitioned in prison. Tiffany is now dead.

These two, plus murderer and torturer Peter Laing/Paris Green - from my town have all had an impact towards my feelings about just allowing trans identified men into women's spaces. It seems astonishing that we have three violent trans women from such a small area.

I'll post other relevant articles in my next post.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/4830868/transgender-prisoner-fife/

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

When Gruffin died, I was genuinely appalled at what she (female but identified as male) went through due to her 'gender affirming care' which directly led to her death.

I was appalled that the original Dutch protocol trial led to the death of one of the participants after drastic efforts to save him by removing large areas of his skin failed. The whole thing should have been scrapped there and then.

None of this is 'care' and it is the reason why I think that the biggest victims of modern trans activism are people who are gender-questioning and people with trans identities.

Peter Laing/Paris Green:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-killers-jail-rammy-leaves-34912548

I suspect that Andrew Burns/Tiffany Scott fell upon the ruse of claiming to be trans from fellow prisoners in Fife. I'm told that there's quite a network in spite of rules against having phones in prison:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68442073

I think gender stuff is something it's easy to be ignorant of, or "I'm all right Jack" - ish about, until it lands like a bomb in your own family or workplace, or on something you care about.
For me, the trigger was the hounding of academics for daring to disagree. That's a hallmark of totalitarian thinking and it's not trivial.

As a former victim of sexual abuse (including as a patient in hospital) I think that single-sex spaces are essential in certain situations. These need to be by actual sex, not 'the sex I wish I was'. The rest of the time (where sex doesn't matter) things can be mixed sex and include those with identities and those without.

Putting male prisoners with trans identites in female prisons should never have happened. I also cannot get my head around the rape of the woman who identified as male after she was put in a male mental health unit. That should never have happened as she should never have been placed there.

I think the safeguarding failures that occur when the TWAW and TMAM mantra is followed are shocking.

Thank you. You've expressed this very well.

Apparently, my DSGD called her mother 'transphobic' when her mother expressed concern that DSGD's best friend, a 20 yr old trans man, had opted for a bilateral mastectomy.

DSGD took a module in Gender Studies at uni and seemed to think that she knew more about 'gender signifiers' than her mother and grandparents.

I did supply teaching in a school where a male teacher identified as non-binary and apparently blamed the kids for making him ill.

The (Scottish high school) children dutifully referred to him as 'Mx [Surname' but kept using he/him/his and apparently this caused stress for the teacher.

I had to cover his classes a few times, and his name plate was a laminated cartoon pic of a bloke with a beard, so I can understand the children getting the pronouns 'wrong'.

@Heggettypeg
I agree that's true for many of us. I was discombobulated when Caitlyn Jenner was on the cover of VanityFair, but the female-socialised bit of me, the bit that said 'be kind'; thought he must have had a hell of a time, and well done him for being open etc etc. How naive I was (though I am glad he came out against men in women's sports).

But I bloody well did care when I was being asked to agree that small children can change sex. And no-one would listen when I said 'hang on a minute, aren't we forgetting little things like safeguarding, child psychology, child development?". It was not a trivial thing - profoundly destabilising in fact - to realise that people I trusted were forgetting all they knew about children, in thrall to an ideology that could not be questioned.

Then when I realised those adult men like Jenner need the cover of little kids; need the cover of pretending this innate so we don't ask difficult questions about fetish, homophobia, trauma or autism that underlie a man's belief they are a woman, I cared a lot.

And the caring got very intense when I was told that caring was evil, bigoted, aggressive, hysterical etc etc.

Edited for typos

an alarming preoccupation with public toilets

That is a trope.

It's almost as if other people want to talk about toilets all the time to deflect from the other important things (and public toilets ARE important because we are all forced to use them and there have NEVeR been enough toilets for women) that are harder to trivialise. Like mental health wards, same sex personal care, boxing, domestic violence shelters, prisons, changing rooms for NHS staff etc

I am with other posters in picking up the dissonance in people who declare they don’t care about whether they are sharing female single sex provisions etc with male people yet tack on value judgements such as ‘be kind’ when other people do and have valid reasons for it. It very much does also come across as ‘I’m alright Jack!’.

Just because you think what you are doing is ‘kind’ doesn’t mean that it actually is ‘kind’ in reality when viewed holistically.

@LtRipley I was just going to say that - who mentioned the toilets ? Ah distraction

sterilisation of children , giving them treatment that means they spend every spare moment in the gym trying to avoid osteoporosis , it’s bloody terrifying and all they go on about is which loo can they use